History?

[Leo]

I see the Dayton Air Show has cancelled the "Fifi" atomic bomb re-enactment. According to the article it's too offensive.
Bet they allow the Tora portion though...
What is revisionist history coming to, and where is it taking us?

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: History?

Oh folks just don't look at the very crowd pleasing bright flash.

[SkyvanDelta]

Re: History?

Both should be discontinued and instead just have a fly by.

Why glorify the 200,000 innocent Japanese people killed because they lived in the blast zone and why glorify the Pearl Harbor attack where 2,402 Americans were killed and 1,282 wounded?

According to the Wikpedia page:

Within the first two to four months of the bombings, the acute effects killed 90,000–166,000 people in Hiroshima and 60,000–80,000 in Nagasaki, with roughly half of the deaths in each city occurring on the first day. The Hiroshima prefecture health department estimated that, of the people who died on the day of the explosion, 60% died from flash or flame burns, 30% from falling debris and 10% from other causes. During the following months, large numbers died from the effect of burns, radiation sickness, and other injuries, compounded by illness. In a US estimate of the total immediate and short term cause of death, 15–20% died from radiation sickness, 20–30% from burns, and 50–60% from other injuries, compounded by illness. In both cities, most of the dead were civilians, although Hiroshima had a sizeable garrison.

Tora! Tora! Tora! is a 1970 American-Japanese war film that dramatizes the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

[badman]

Re: History?

Both should be discontinued and instead just have a fly by.

Why glorify the 200,000 innocent Japanese people killed because they lived in the blast zone and why glorify the Pearl Harbor attack where 2,402 Americans were killed and 1,282 wounded?

According to the Wikpedia page:

Within the first two to four months of the bombings, the acute effects killed 90,000–166,000 people in Hiroshima and 60,000–80,000 in Nagasaki, with roughly half of the deaths in each city occurring on the first day. The Hiroshima prefecture health department estimated that, of the people who died on the day of the explosion, 60% died from flash or flame burns, 30% from falling debris and 10% from other causes. During the following months, large numbers died from the effect of burns, radiation sickness, and other injuries, compounded by illness. In a US estimate of the total immediate and short term cause of death, 15–20% died from radiation sickness, 20–30% from burns, and 50–60% from other injuries, compounded by illness. In both cities, most of the dead were civilians, although Hiroshima had a sizeable garrison.

Tora! Tora! Tora! is a 1970 American-Japanese war film that dramatizes the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

Are you serious? By this logic we should just not have any warbirds at any airshows in recognition of anyone who ever had anything to do with them since they all in one way or another were involved in destruction of property and lives! This is the type of PC that drives me nuts and is destroying our Country IMHO.

And, by the way, I don't think the Hiroshima re-enactment is a glorification of the killing of innocent Japanese (that's a whole other topic), but rather an appreciation of the innovation, determination, patriotism, and sacrifice that allowed us to save millions of lives and casualties that would have occurred during an invasion of the mainland and ending that war sooner rather than later.

Just my $.02.

[Leo]

Re: History?

Many years ago I saw the whole show. Battle of Britain, Tora, Tora, Tora, the pacific war, the atomic bombing. The narrative was quite moving. It was not glorification so much as acknowledgement and a bit of reverence for these historic events. Of course the pageantry of the aircraft, noise, etc. punctuated it, at least for me.
I think what bothers me the most in the last few years has been a tendency to sugar coat it all, not offend and hold back truths. The Japanese did some gruesome things to everyone they conquered. They were a ruthless enemy to fight. We, in turn, did some horrific things back to them. Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Unique in that they were atomic, but not in death toll. Would today's America accept us killing over 250,000 in ONE RAID on Tokyo? The Germans transgressions are well known. How well known is Hamburg, Dresden, etc.? War at that scale is horrific and to ignore the loss and minimize the terror and pain on all sides is to invite it happening again.
We can glorify the deeds of the men who experienced it, most of them don't, they know better. We can look at the aircraft we all love and think "that's cool". We can look at it as a symbol of progress and technology of an era gone. I prefer to do both, but in the context that these were originally built to kill, destroy and take the battle to our enemies. We just did it better and in larger numbers.
Sorry, too much Gordon Baxter lately...

[Sneauxman]

Re: History?

Three cheers for Leo. What is the point of celebrating combat of anykind. War is, was and will always be madness - uncivilized,brutal, vicious, totally unfair and destructive. I was alive during World War Eleven (as todays ignorant kids call it) and remember first hand the virulence of it all. Even today it is challenging for me to drive Japanese cars and a German bike without occasionally remembering the "Japs" and "Krouts" as our vets called them. I still remember the "N" word spoken in my family.
Although I love the flying machines and strategies of war, I am still periodically re-sickened at the savagery of all sides. I say we should not forget the past. There is no need to recount the events except to learn how not to repeat them. We should celebratet the living here and now and truly set the past aside.
Why don't we all fly low, fly fast, turn left and praise God.
See you all in September.

[eeyore]

Re: History?

Of course someone will get offended if you remember history. Strange we only talk about the 2 atomic bombings, not the whole of the bombing offensive against Japan. Truth is using Napalm and attacking in massed formations we incinerated 66 Japanese cities and killed over 2 1/2 million Japanese citizens. Course we never mention that Japan started the War in 1937 when they invaded Manchuria nor do we mention that they enslaved school girls as young as 12 to serve as prostitutes for their Army. Or that the Rape of Nanking was just that.

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: History?

How about the Bataan march? I understand after the Doolittle raid that the Japanese killed 250,000 Chinese. As Patton said "War Is Hell".

[shorebird]

Re: History?

The Chinese haven't forgotten Nanking.

[Sparrow]

Re: History?

The Rape of Nanking is a good example. What about the earlier videos where they show Japaneses soldiers lining em up 3,4,5 deep to see how many heads one gunshot will pass through. Those atomic bombs saved well over a million lives and BOTH sides have agreed to that fact throughout history. One should investigate and read about the planning and the estimated cost of lives from both sides if mainland Japan would've had to be invaded by ground forces. WW II was actually a war in which the US wanted to win, unlike todays situations. To much political correctness and touchy feely bull****. Could you imagine trying to fight a war like WW II in today's environement of instant communications?? That was the way the world was at that time, it is what it is and it was terrible. Everybody needs to quit trying to rewrite history because someone gets there knickers in a knot. The atomic bombs pale in comparison to Hitler's "Final Solution."

[uhhuh35]

Re: History?

My wifes Grandfather is an Hiroshima survivor. He worked for Mitsubishi during the war helping to design aircraft and If I understood him correctly, he helped design a Kamikaze plane. He liked Grumman Aircraft and said the Hellcat is what turned the tide in the War but that's a side issue.

He and his wife were at Hiroshima that week for a conference in the city. They were staying in a little apartment just outside the city and as it turned out he felt sick that day and stayed home.

His wife saw the plane fly over and witnessed the blast.

The next day he took a walk through the city and looked at the devastation first hand. He said "It has Hell on Earth".

Before he passed away at the age of 93 he told me "The Americans HAD to do it. Japan at that time was ruled my the Military and were NEVER going to give up".

He was designated a National Treasure and was interviewed by Many Japanese Organizations and Publications.

[Leo]

Re: History?

Sorry this has NOTHING to do with Air Racing, and I apologize if starting this thread was wrong, just had to vent and figured this group would see things.
One of the keys to our commitment to winning WW2 was a true hatred for our enemies, something we cannot do anymore. Sure it smacked of propaganda, and was, but that is what is needed to wage the total war that was required at that time. If you are not going to kill the enemy and eliminate his ability to wage war you should just stay home. Now there seems to be no clear understanding that when you start something like this, you must finish it and finish it quickly. Otherwise, don't start it. With our modern weapons we should be able to minimize co-lateral damage. There were attempts to do so in some cases in WW2, but the weapons did not allow it. But there still will be some.
I know it is easier to say all of this from a keyboard, having never served. Most of my last two family generations did, however. My uncles served in WW2, one flying B-25 missions out of Italy and two getting Kamakazed in the pacific. My dad flew C-130's in Vietnam. I have been a student of history since I was very small. I think I have gotten a fair understanding of it all.
We ain't doing it right.

[FlyKidChris]

Re: History?

Both should be discontinued and instead just have a fly by.

Why glorify the 200,000 innocent Japanese people killed because they lived in the blast zone and why glorify the Pearl Harbor attack where 2,402 Americans were killed and 1,282 wounded?

I, for one, don't consider re-enactments to be glorification. Rather, I believe that they serve as reminders of mankind's sometimes savage history. "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it."

I've spent a fair amount of time flying the Pacific and I'm sometimes surprised by the lack of knowledge about the bombing of Japan in WWII. For example, more than a few times, I've heard the fire bombing of Tokyo described as racist. However, when I've asked those same accusers about Dresden, they have no knowledge of that fire bombing.

By the way, I've been to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki and they're both great, dynamic cities today.

[Leo]

Re: History?

To me it's important that we teach the absolute horrors of those two bombs so the future generations have a true knowledge and fear of using them again. Just as important is teaching the WHY. Why did Japan feel it needed to go to war with us? Why did we put them in that "position". Why did we need to get involved in removing Hitler and Mussolini. How did we accomplish it all? History is truth and SHOULD be separate from political, social and religious agenda's. Never is though.
It is all relevant when you compare the complicated politics and responses of that time to the politics and responses today. There are some similiarities that are just plain scary.

[ignomini]

Re: History?

One other aspect of the atomic bombs which history loves to ignore, look at the deaths in war prior to and after the dropping of the bombs. One can argue that while the results were horrific by any measurable standard, they have potentially saved untold numbers of lives since 1945.