Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

If the GG accident had started 50 feet lower it would have ended in the stands. 100 feet higher might have been no spectator casualties.

Heck even 1/10th of a second would have changed the outcome in so many ways. This scatter pattern theory has so many holes in it you could fly a hot lap through it safely. It's based on a horizontal plain, and leaves out the third dimension... UP! You can put up all the deadlines and restrictions you want; an out of control airplane WILL ignore them. GG broke every single one of them during the accident of 2011. It's like shooting a 45ACP at the tarmac and predicting where the bullet will hit.

[flyingjibus]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

In and up is the mayday, not to mention that there are four other courses other than unlimited , no biggie no one watches those other classes anyway

Always a bridesmaid........

Stay strong

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

In and up is the mayday, not to mention that there are four other courses other than unlimited , no biggie no one watches those other classes anyway

Aww Phil do you need an ice cream?! Hey man now that I camp on site I have no choice but to watch you guys. My brain is not able to sleep through the sound of racing airplanes. Well and I've already been up for two hours getting 38 out for all the photogs.

[BillRo]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

Finally Skymonster has injected some reality into the discussion. The 250' limit at Pylon 8,9 is not going away because the race course design parameters defining scatter and safety radii depend on it. The higher the incident happens the larger the debris field (think Space Shuttle). FAA took some heat after 2011 because their regulations were not completely consistent and there is no way they are going to deviate from them here. RARA has no choice but to comply with FAA requirements; FAA can shut the show down at any time if they see something that they do not like.

RARA has commitments to the sponsors so the races will go on. RARA knows that the Unlimiteds are a big draw and need them, so when the UL Division management drew a line in the sand, RARA found that support was not unanimous they did an end run around the line.

In 2012 the radius around pylons 8,9 was softened to move the majority of the turn further from the crowd and to reduce the "g" loading - about all they could do to improve matters, other than adding "K" rail barriers and fences.

How about some suggestions for possible areas of negotiation?

1. One of the issues is passing slower aircraft; there is a large speed difference between the top handful of Gold racers and the average stocker. Formula One car racing has a 7% rule - if you cannot show a qual speed faster than 7% of the pole speed you cannot race. So lets study reducing the number of planes in a race to those with reasonably compatible speeds.
We have had Racing Biplanes, Super Sport and I seem to remember Super Gold Unlimiteds although after 42 years it merges into one big Reno.

2. Treat Pylons 8,9 as a local yellow - no passing allowed. I recognize that lifting off is not really an option but perhaps as a pilots plans his moves he could take that into account.

3. As I understand it, 2012 rules gave some latitude in altitude to avoid collisions etc but there is concern that the pilot would be DSQ or worse by the RARA Contest Committee or FAA without recourse. I suggest the UL division make sure action at that end of the course is video recorded for later analysis if there is a disagreement. I have not been able to confirm the wording since I toss my rules after the races, and RARA has pulled them from the website, presumably for a rewrite in light of current events.

4. For many years Formula One has had their own Contest Committee to deal with as many class racing issues as possible with out going to the RARA Contest Committee. They have dealt with protest between pilots, dangerous flying, and technical rules violations completely within the class. RARA has gone along with their recommendations. This of course does not work for the ever popular "flying below the "R" of Reno" or pylon cuts, and I suspect the class would not get much say in a 250' height violation either, but it could be useful in other instances.

Again I urge the fans not to give up on air racing just because there is a possibility that their favorite plane may not be there.

BillRo

[f1-69]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

It's just hard to deal with, even if the almost 30 unlimited don't show there will still be over 100 other planes still racing at reno. F1 , Biplane , Sport, T6 , and jet ,plus all the performers , a lot of work, time, money, sweat and tears is going into assuring that these other 100 aircraft make ncar 2013 , so to say your not coming just ...... Gonna stop there don't want to loose anymore fan base

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

How about some suggestions for possible areas of negotiation?

1. One of the issues is passing slower aircraft; there is a large speed difference between the top handful of Gold racers and the average stocker. Formula One car racing has a 7% rule - if you cannot show a qual speed faster than 7% of the pole speed you cannot race.

Or if you are getting lapped you get pulled off the course before the pass is a factor. Works well in other forms of racing I've done.

[Donald McMullin]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

Heck even 1/10th of a second would have changed the outcome in so many ways. This scatter pattern theory has so many holes in it you could fly a hot lap through it safely. It's based on a horizontal plain, and leaves out the third dimension... UP! You can put up all the deadlines and restrictions you want; an out of control airplane WILL ignore them. GG broke every single one of them during the accident of 2011. It's like shooting a 45ACP at the tarmac and predicting where the bullet will hit.

To add to the confusion, I am assuming the scatter pattern used to determine the 250ft height limit is based on the 500mph used to evaluate the coarse layout. What is going to happen when lap speeds exceed 500 mph which increases the scatter pattern, is pilot going to be "Black" flagged, or is height limit going to lowered.

Too many unknowns. The only thing I know is that I will be at Reno 2013 supporting all those, in any class, that want to race. In spite of the issues I have with the direction this country is going, we still have the opportunity to attend and support the only true air racing venue in the world.

Deep Enough

[stuntflyr]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

Or if you are getting lapped you get pulled off the course before the pass is a factor. Works well in other forms of racing I've done.

I didn't realize you are an air race pilot. Big difference from 2D racing.
Chris...

[stuntflyr]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

Or if you are getting lapped you get pulled off the course before the pass is a factor. Works well in other forms of racing I've done.

I didn't realize you are an air race pilot. Big difference from 2D racing.
Chris...

[o4asf260]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

I feel better knowing that 177 would have been penalized for breaking the 250' rule BEFORE the tragic ACCIDENT occurred. Ugghhh.

Nice try, but how about just admitting that you can't make racing as safe as you wish you could.

I hope that this all comes from outside the air racing community as I sense the organizers have been highly motivated to safety over the years.

I'll sign a waiver and support the "go fast" folks in all classes and think the rules should be heavily influenced by their input.


Bob

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

I didn't realize you are an air race pilot. Big difference from 2D racing.
Chris...

Yeah I'm just some monkey that turns wrenches; what do I know? Radios work the same if it's 2D or 3D racing.

[stuntflyr]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

From who is the radio call coming from? Where is it safe to pull off of the course (because it's not going to be where the 250 foot ceiling is, right?), where is it that the safety of an airplane pulling off of an established line near other airplanes on an established overtake safer than continuing on the established paths when a radio call is made? An outside observer is making it safer to change everything in the projected path mix?
This isn't Grand Prix, no rearviews, no deceleration to yellow flag speeds, no correlation to 2D motor racing in many, many aspects. No disrespect to you, snarky maybe, but no disrespect when pointing out the differences.

Chris...

[flyingjibus]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

I feel better knowing that 177 would have been penalized for breaking the 250' rule BEFORE the tragic ACCIDENT occurred. Ugghhh.

Nice try, but how about just admitting that you can't make racing as safe as you wish you could.

I hope that this all comes from outside the air racing community as I sense the organizers have been highly motivated to safety over the years.

I'll sign a waiver and support the "go fast" folks in all classes and think the rules should be heavily influenced by their input.


Bob

You "sign" a waiver every time you buy a ticket. Waiver's dont mean **** anymore.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

From who is the radio call coming from? Where is it safe to pull off of the course (because it's not going to be where the 250 foot ceiling is, right?), where is it that the safety of an airplane pulling off of an established line near other airplanes on an established overtake safer than continuing on the established paths when a radio call is made? An outside observer is making it safer to change everything in the projected path mix?
This isn't Grand Prix, no rearviews, no deceleration to yellow flag speeds, no correlation to 2D motor racing in many, many aspects. No disrespect to you, snarky maybe, but no disrespect when pointing out the differences.

Chris...

Ummmm race control and/or spotters! And it would be no different then calling a mayday. The pilots have sight of one another and talk on the radio quite often. How do you think we learned about the clam shell door?! So instead of belittling someone that has raced since they were 5 years old and pointing of the differences between the two you can simply give some thought before you bark out even a snarky answer.

[stuntflyr]

Re: Unlimited Saftey Stand Down

The biggest impediment to air travel is ATC, and the FAA controls ATC. With closed towers, the General Aviation segment of little airplanes would flourish. No rules enforcers watching to hit the guy that crossed some multi-mile airspace line by a 100 feet, no one needing separation required for the observers (ATC) comfort when the people flying the airplanes are fine with much less. More operations, more efficiently, with no long sits on the ground waiting for ATC to make there minds up for the pilots that are actually flying the airplanes occurs with no control towers.
And all of that is just keeping you and me from flying efficiently, effectively and frequently the family Cessna.

In the time constraints of Gold Unlimited operations, no radio calls in addition to what's been used in the past is necessary or necessarily safe.

The sad story is that someone allowed a team that shouldn't have been allowed, to race. A bad accident happened and now that Clarence is retired as the FAA guy we're in a new era of nanny state knows best.

Unlimited Warbird Racing Class is (will be, but I'm more certain it already is) the P-40 class in a few years. It was inevitable to have a slow down of the racers, with the same sound and size as the old racers, making the next period of air racing.

That's what has happened, we knew it would, so let's enjoy the air show and Warbird parade.

Chris...