New frontier

[Chad Veich]

Re: New frontier

A lot of years ago, I tried crunching some numbers for a couple of different twin engine concepts.

One of the biggest problems I had was predicting/estimating the prop efficiency of the rear prop in a push-pull (Do335) configuration.

I finally decided that a twinned concept - ala F-82 Twin Mustang - might work best.

But cubic dollars I don't have (and that was before the divorce!).

I remember a conversation with a local warbird guy by the name of Carl Schmeider who came to the same conclusion. He was very skeptical of the Pond Racer layout and was convinced that a scaled down P-82 would have made a much better racer. Apparently he had done some research on the subject and had some calculations to back up his opinion. I guess he had considered the project but decided to build up a P-64 replica instead. (Now in Thialand) Unfortunately Carl was killed in the crash of his AT-6 not too long after finishing the P-64.

[blacksheep]

Re: New frontier

I think I remember reading about one guy who was "going" to rebuild a Cessna 337 with a slicked up one passenger cockpit

[John]

Re: New frontier

I remember a conversation with a local warbird guy by the name of Carl Schmeider who came to the same conclusion. He was very skeptical of the Pond Racer layout and was convinced that a scaled down P-82 would have made a much better racer. Apparently he had done some research on the subject and had some calculations to back up his opinion. I guess he had considered the project but decided to build up a P-64 replica instead. (Now in Thialand) Unfortunately Carl was killed in the crash of his AT-6 not too long after finishing the P-64.

How about the Ed Horkey Racer concept? ...a man formerly involved with P-51 Mustang aerodynamics.

[FlyKidChris]

Re: New frontier

How about the Ed Horkey Racer concept? ...a man formerly involved with P-51 Mustang aerodynamics.

I'm not familiar with that one - can you describe it, please?

[Fence Sence]

Re: New frontier

Nobody is gonna say "turboprop"?

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: New frontier

Nobody is gonna say "turboprop"?

Where's my rope...

[Fence Sence]

Re: New frontier

Where's my rope...

Ha! I knew I'd get strung up for that one. We're gonna run out of Merlins and P&Ws eventually. That's just facts. Who is going to dump the R&D money into 4000hp internal combustion engines for racing? Turboprops make sense on every front. I don't like kerosene anymore than anyone else here but, I'd rather see turboprops than jets. Anyday.

[thunderstangfan]

Re: New frontier

I don't like kerosene anymore than anyone else here but, I'd rather see turboprops than jets. Anyday.

damn straight!

[Big_Jim]

Re: New frontier

damn straight!

As someone who has a lot of seat time behind both big and small turboprops, and has tried to weather first-hand the last twenty five years as the Unlimited hydroplanes phased out the pistons in favor of the T-55's....the day that we introduce a turboprop class at Reno in place of the Unlimiteds....I'll wave a fond farewell to everyone and part with a "yeah....good luck with that".

And if my reality is jaded...well...it's just that. MY reality.

[Fence Sence]

Re: New frontier

Big Jim,

I think your opinions are pretty damn well respected around here. Just curious as to your disgust of turboprops. Why so no bueno?

[thunderstangfan]

Re: New frontier

um... i was thinking more along the lines of, phasing out the jet for a turbo prop class! at least it still has a propeller...
not sure where I implied anything about the unlimiteds
hence my quote of the last sentence...

[FlyKidChris]

Re: New frontier

I think the Jet Class would be more interesting if it was changed to the Afterburner Class.

[Big_Jim]

Re: New frontier

Big Jim,

I think your opinions are pretty damn well respected around here. Just curious as to your disgust of turboprops. Why so no bueno?

I have no disgust of turboprops. As I said, I have LOTS of hours in my logbook in everything from PT-6's through T-56's. They are great engines, and I'll fly around behind them all day. Just not in a race plane.

First off, a turboprop plane does not have the noise factors that a piston powered plane does. The sound and the feel are what are the draws of the Warbirds in the Unlimited Class. If that's a sound I wanted to hear I could go down to the airport and watch Cessna Caravan's take off and land all day.

But more important, as we found out first hand in the hydroplanes, what controls the horsepower limits of the tubroprops is the fuel control. You can twist that fuel control up and up and up all day until you literally melt the engine. How fast do you want to go and how bad do you want to win? It will just keep on running hotter and hotter until the hot section explodes. And if you've never seen a turbine engine hot section go, it's not like throwing a rod through the side of a Merlin...it sends sharp turbine blades out the case in a 360 degree arc at a very high rate of speed and tears itself apart. We almost killed a few people in the '90's when wheels and blades went up on the beach. More than one boat has almost been cut in half by a hot section going off. In the boats we ended up having to put kevlar 'girdles' around the hot section.

The boats started going through turbine engines faster than they ever went through Merlins and Allisons, because there were no limits on them, and the teams just kept turning the fuel control up and spinning that turbine at 110%, 120%, 130%....how much fuel can you dump in there before it melts? So to counter that, they started putting fuel flow and N2 limits on the turbines. Can't spin it past a certain N2, can't flow more than (I think the number now is) 4.1 GPM. Now it's not "Unlimited" anymore. It's "restricted" racing. And of course, the guys with the money devised ways to trick the flow-meters, devised computer programs that had topping governors that would allow it to spin to 130% for 2.999 seconds and then close, so that at the 3 second mark (which was the magic number) the N2 and fuel-flow would be within limits.

So now you're resorting to cheating to get around the rules that were put in place as safety measures in the first place.

How bad to you want to win? Want to go racing with restrictions? Run NASCAR or something.

Oh, and when the boats switched over from piston motors to turbines, the fan base disappeared. Even at the stalwart races on the circuit today, more people show up to watch the Blue Angels than to watch the boats race...and then leave after the airshow part is over. We used to get 500,000 people on the beach easy in Seattle on race day. Now, lucky if you have even a quarter of that. The noise goes, so do the fans.

Just my opinion....but there is nothing appealing about racing a turbine to me. The novelty wears of REALLY quick.

[Big_Jim]

Re: New frontier

um... i was thinking more along the lines of, phasing out the jet for a turbo prop class! at least it still has a propellor...
not sure where I implied anything about the unlimiteds
hence my quote of the last sentence...

Todd...my post wasn't aimed at you...I think it was just the 'reply' link I clicked on. Nothing personal at all.

[thunderstangfan]

Re: New frontier

i wasnt worried... just wanted to clarify my position.