Time to climb

[Reever]

Re: Time to climb

Of course the Red Baron was a Mustang and I should have had listed that. In my zeal to discuss climb rates I failed that part of the discussion by not mentioning that fact. My point in the entire conversation was to point out that the climb rate of a Bear Cat was far superior to the Mustang as well as many of the propeller driven planes of that era. In regards to my favorite mount. Performance does not necessarily dictate terms on what might or might not be my favorite. If I was flying around doing air shows and just doing aerobatics, the Bear Cat would be my choice. The reality however is there is more then climb or handling that make an airplane a favorite choice. Cruise speed, range, comfort utility and looks play a big part of the equation. So for the reasons mentioned I select the Mustang as my favorite mount. That is not to say that the Mustang is the best performer, as it clearly is not. Hope that answers your questions. There is nothing sexier than a Mustang, it wins the best looking hands down. As everyone knows its not how you feel rather how you look that is most important.

MJ

The Mustang is the "sexiest" of all. Over the years I've got some nasty responses when I said that I thought that race modified Mustangs like Voodoo, Strega and Sumpthin Else looked better than a stock D model Mustang. That's another can of worms. LOL

[Paynts]

Re: Time to climb

I think mr Jackson had simply won the argumentin regard to Bearcats and Mustangs! However there does seem to be lots of different climbg rates quoted for all these warbirds, in 1 comparison a Sea Hornet has got a 5500 rate of climb against a figure of 4500 for a Bearcat. Quite a few reports put the Hornets rate of climb above 4000 ft/min In fact a prototype Hornet with no armament, was quoted as having reached 490 mph at 25,000 ft. A far bit faster than a a Sea Fury or Bearcat. Fact remains tho, Mr Jackson has actually flown a Bearcat and i dont suppose many of the rest of us here have.......

[440_Magnum]

Re: Time to climb

Well, this thread got interesting after Matt's comments- thanks for such a great summary of the differences in the two aircraft.

I always viewed the origin of this thread as a concocted test. You could always cook up some strictly limited set of rules for a rate-of-climb test that the Mustang could win.... like limiting airspeed at the start and then climbing from 20,000 feet to ???? where the Merlin simply can make more power than a non-turbo 2800 and all the Bearcat's advantages are weaker. You could probably also cook up some test where a Wildcat or Jug could beat them both... OK, maybe not a Wildcat, just like you can cook an acceleration test where a 4x4 1-ton truck can beat a Viper (the standing 50 feet, or something like that). But is it a meaningful test?

That said, my money's on a Mustang to win this year. Heck, I'm starting with 3:1 odds, just by numbers. ;-)

[Tigercat24]

Re: Time to climb

That said, my money's on a Mustang to win this year. Heck, I'm starting with 3:1 odds, just by numbers. ;-)

And I'm the cock-eyed optimist that wants a red & white Sea Fury to take its first win in 7 years

[440_Magnum]

Re: Time to climb

And I'm the cock-eyed optimist that wants a red & white Sea Fury to take its first win in 7 years

Wow. It just does not seem like its been that long!

[CanIFlyIt]

Re: Time to climb

The Sea Fury is also a spectacular performer and is another better handling, climbing aircraft then the Mustang. It also can hold its own very well in a dog fight as the Sea Fury handles very similar to the Bear Cat.

MJ

Matt, since we've established that the Bearcat performs better than the -51, can you comment on a Sea Fury/Bearcat matchup?


(On another note, it sure is awesome to be able to log onto a forum and see the big names posting and commenting alongside the fans. What other sport has that?)

[rampking]

Re: Time to climb

"Matt, since we've established that the Bearcat performs better than the -51, can you comment on a Sea Fury/Bearcat matchup?"

Yes, as neither the Sea Fury or Bearcat shot down a single aircraft during WWII and are considered post-war fighters, this would be a better matchup than comparisons to an aircraft design which first flew in October of 1940. (NA-73X)

[rampking]

Re: Time to climb

[QUOTE=J.A.W.;113084]Thanks for the 'heads up' on that B-J..

"USAF placard for F-51H.."
In regards to climb to climb, check out the XP-51G when you have time.

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

You asked for it Rampking..

Here is the XP-51G graph.. [Note: this is a 'manufacturers performance estimate']

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/xp-51g-chart.jpg

& for comparison, a production Mustang graph, [Note: light-load climb-rate].

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51h-booklet-pg15.jpg

To be fair, the `51H was only superficially related to the `51D & earlier models,
& didn't see combat either..
.. Unless.. ..was Capt. T. Mantell flying an 'H' on his UFO intercept?

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

Capt. Mantell was flying 44-65869, a `51D.

So, if he had been aboard a `51H running on ADI/90in - he, jest maybe, coulda caught that dang UFO..

[John]

Re: Time to climb

Capt. Mantell was flying 44-65869, a `51D.

So, if he had been aboard a `51H running on ADI/90in - he, jest maybe, coulda caught that dang UFO..

...lol!

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Time to climb

"Matt, since we've established that the Bearcat performs better than the -51, can you comment on a Sea Fury/Bearcat matchup?"

Yes, as neither the Sea Fury or Bearcat shot down a single aircraft during WWII and are considered post-war fighters, this would be a better matchup than comparisons to an aircraft design which first flew in October of 1940. (NA-73X)

The Sea Fury is a great flying aircraft. It has much of the same flying qualities of the Bear Cat. Light flight controls, Stable and a real climber. It also has no airframe issues especially wing issues as the Bear Cat does. The bear Cat is lighter and certainly a better all around performer. Again, I say that there is more to a great plane then just speed or climb. Comfort, Range and appearance count too. The Sea Fury is a great plane and certainly ranks up there with the great performers. Its not far off the Bear Cat in my opinion.


MJ

[J.A.W.]

Re: Time to climb

Matt, there were a couple of trick factory-built Furies..
- that were both pretty & yet outperformed the Centaurus [ & mil-spec F8F]..

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Fury/Sea_Fury-Flight.pdf

If Kermit Weeks ever gets any of his Sabres to flight status, maybe you could grab the gig?

[grampi]

Re: Time to climb

Well, this thread got interesting after Matt's comments- thanks for such a great summary of the differences in the two aircraft.

I always viewed the origin of this thread as a concocted test. You could always cook up some strictly limited set of rules for a rate-of-climb test that the Mustang could win.... like limiting airspeed at the start and then climbing from 20,000 feet to ???? where the Merlin simply can make more power than a non-turbo 2800 and all the Bearcat's advantages are weaker. You could probably also cook up some test where a Wildcat or Jug could beat them both... OK, maybe not a Wildcat, just like you can cook an acceleration test where a 4x4 1-ton truck can beat a Viper (the standing 50 feet, or something like that). But is it a meaningful test?

That said, my money's on a Mustang to win this year. Heck, I'm starting with 3:1 odds, just by numbers. ;-)

I chose the 20000 to 30000 feet contest because 1) time to climb is always done from a dead stop to 10000 feet and everyone knows a climb contest in this altitude range will always be won by a a Bearcat: it's at lower altitudes where the Bearcat excels, and 2) climb performance was important back in those days when developing fighters as they needed to climb to be able to intecept bombers if necessary...problem is, approaching bombers wouldn't have been coming in at 10000 feet, it would've been more like 30000 feet, so I would say the ability to climb from 20000 to 30000 would've been just as important as climbing from the groung to 10000. Higher altitudes is where the Mustang shines, hence I thought a more interesting and fair comparison (given the Bearcat's 500 HP advantage) would be to compare the two at higher altitudes....

[grampi]

Re: Time to climb

...or better yet, why not make the time to climb contest from a dead stop to 30000 feet? The Bearcat may still win, but I bet it would be a lot closer than the contest to 10000 feet....