Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

[Sky Critter]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

I'm not worked up at all but, it appears you are. Sorry if you misinterpreted my comments but, I offered no opinions in my post. Until more info is released, that's all the rest of us have. I haven't seen anyone here point fingers, lay blame or speculate as to what went wrong. That's why I suggested the productive conversation regarding formation procedures be split into another thread.

What I have seen, more and more lately, is the belittlement and talking down to those of us that aren't intimately "plugged in" to the air racing community. We come here because we love aviation in general and air racing in particular. On one hand, forum members are encouraged to participate but, as soon as one of us says something disagreeable we get the "sit down and shut up until you've walked in my shoes" attitude.

[Magdrop]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Yes I agree, I am so sick of being told to shut up as a "fence bird". I have been a member of both a Top Fuel drag boat team and a Fuel Funny car team. I know about the death of friends and loved ones and it sucks. What we as team members did was provide facts. I never held the position of I know something you don't know. As a team we were VERY interested in learning what happened when there was a accident so we could LEARN from it. I just don't see why we keep getting attacked by those in the know. To me its a sign of weakness.

[Dudewanarace]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

... I think it is telling that neither Randy or Tom have posted again. I am certain that it is based out of respect for the situation. While not certain, I would not be surprised if it wasn't also based out of respect for this board and the desire to keep it relevant. It is clear something is more important to them than "setting the record straight"...

Bingo ~ I haven't posted, but I have been reading.

Also, thanks for the kind comments James.

Tom

[Warbirds45]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

My apology's to Wayne, and the readers. My post was out of frustration, and defending Mr. Matt Jackson.
Warbirds45

[Remo]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

That's certainly your prerogative.

Realize that in the rest of professional aviation, we very importantly take opportunities like this to learn from what happened and try and prevent future mishaps.

We seem to go through this same circular discussion every time there is a mishap and someone posts something other than simply saying how sad we are or that they're in our prayers. Certainly in this thread there hasn't been any speculation or finger-pointing. I agree that early speculation, or early assessment of blame before all the facts and analyses are known is very bad form, and could be quite offensive depending on who you are and where you sit. Again, that's not what's going on here...we are merely talking about understanding a specific "fact" that was printed in a newspaper article.

This type of discussion isn't disrespectful to those involved, or their friends and loved ones, in any way. In fact, it is probably the highest tribute we can pay to departed fellow airmen to try and not make the agony of their departure in vain.

DITTO..!

[Remo]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Yes I agree, I am so sick of being told to shut up as a "fence bird". I have been a member of both a Top Fuel drag boat team and a Fuel Funny car team. I know about the death of friends and loved ones and it sucks. What we as team members did was provide facts. I never held the position of I know something you don't know. As a team we were VERY interested in learning what happened when there was a accident so we could LEARN from it. I just don't see why we keep getting attacked by those in the know. To me its a sign of weakness.

This Type Of Behavior Has Been Going On In Here For YEARS, If Your ONLY "Hoi Polloi" And Not A Pilot Or Crew Member You BETTER Watch What You Comment On Or Inquire About.

YOU Will Be BURNED @ The Stake In Here.. I've Watched And Witnessed It MANY Times Over The Years.

You Can Be A Pilot For Christ's Sakes And Get HAMMERED!


And Quite Honestly That's Left A BAD Taste In My Mouth For YEARS. But If Your A FAN Your Options Are Somewhat Limited, At Getting News On WHY We ALL Come HERE!

Im Waiting For The Day That SOMEONE Somewhere REALLY Unloads And States Their .02 Regarding This VERY Subject. I Feel As If - For Lack Of A Better Description Which Will Probably Will Get Me Banned, "It's Like "Incestious Inbreeding"!

When I See It Happen I Get "TOO Hot". My Language Would Be Too Much For Many That Visit. Sometimes The ONLY Thing Some People UNDERSTAND Is "STFU"!

I'm On The RAMPS Religiously Since 73, Unless Your In The FAMILY Your A Johnny Come Lately Around Here. Im NOT Saying EVERYONE But Those Of Which I'm Speaking, Know WHO "THEY ARE"!

I've SEEN MUCHO Censorship In Here For Pathetic Reasons - I'd LOVE To See Mark NOT Cave As Easily AS He Has In The Past.. It's The Solidarity From Those That Encourage, Support, Or Request The Pulling Of Certain Threads That Bug Me The Most!

NOTHING In This Thread Is ANYTHING But Sincere And Genuine Interest To Tragic Event, And You Shouldn't Have To Feel Like An Outsider For Inquiring.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Ultimately this entire forum is Wayne Sagar's sandbox. We are all guests here. We play by his rules, else we are banned or otherwise penalized.

I participate/read/contribute here knowing full well what the rules and policies are.

I don't necessarily agree with all of his policies/opinions on how discussions are conducted here, but then again if I had a real problem with it I could go start my own digital sandbox with any rules I pleased.

[planecrazy2]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Remo, you clearly need to start yer own air race web site. Get a little real world practice at moderating a site like this, and then you can rant with credibility.

[f8f1]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

For the rest of us rail birds -

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140427X21627&key=1

[Remo]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Remo, you clearly need to start yer own air race web site. Get a little real world practice at moderating a site like this, and then you can rant with credibility.

(planecrazy2)

A Perfect EXAMPLE..!

Your Attendance Resume ..? WOW..! ( And A Smart ASS Comment )...

I Won't Even BOTHER Stating MINE Which Grandfather's My Humble .02 - Your Not Even CLOSE..!

"YOU And YOUR Brethren" ARE EXACTLY Indicative Of My Point Of View..!

Your Pathetic - As I Said, "Incestious Inbreeding"..!

Your Little Fraternity Will NEVER Stop Until SOMEONE Adjusts Your Flaps And Altitude, Or Splits Your Wig..!

As A Gentleman - I Now Give YOU The LAST Word, So You Can SLEEP @ NIGHT..!

[planecrazy2]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Ok, I'll respectfully try one more time.

It is regrettable this thread has degenerated into name calling and bad feelings towards other members just because their views differ on this sensitive subject. This is just another example of dysfunctional web forum communication that would never happen in real life if we were all discussing this over a beer at the kitchen table, face to face.

I actually have been a mod in a community forum, one that could mirror aafo, but on another topic. The biggest difference in the two sites is we never have had to discuss anyone being killed racing their boat, in our sailing forum.

Yes it is important to learn from accidents. Clearly this would be the highest honor to those killed in the line of duty, so to speak.

But before that can happen, respect for the family must come first. Public speculation can wait, out of respect for the grieving family. This seems like the rational, kind, and thoughtful way to proceed through a tragedy like this.

In my business, “speculation”, without accurate facts to back it up could get someone hurt, or even killed. So we discourage it until the facts are in. Then we compile a report so the facts can be shared and hopefully we can all learn from them.

I’m not an “insider”; I’m just some guy that loves air racing. Another ramp rat with an opinion. I can’t tell you what to do, only make suggestions from my perspective. The only one who can tell you what to do on this site is Wayne. And, as Wayne has reported in the past, having to ban a member or censor a post is an agonizing decision, and not done lightly.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Cheers.

[John H]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

It seems like every aviation accident thread on this and Wix turns into a how dare you you are an idiot slug fest. On Wix one guy came up with the funny term Aviation Accident Outrage Response Team.

Kind of sums it up.

[BJH]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Ok, I'll respectfully try one more time.

It is regrettable this thread has degenerated into name calling and bad feelings towards other members just because their views differ on this sensitive subject. This is just another example of dysfunctional web forum communication that would never happen in real life if we were all discussing this over a beer at the kitchen table, face to face.

I actually have been a mod in a community forum, one that could mirror aafo, but on another topic. The biggest difference in the two sites is we never have had to discuss anyone being killed racing their boat, in our sailing forum.

Yes it is important to learn from accidents. Clearly this would be the highest honor to those killed in the line of duty, so to speak.

But before that can happen, respect for the family must come first. Public speculation can wait, out of respect for the grieving family. This seems like the rational, kind, and thoughtful way to proceed through a tragedy like this.

In my business, “speculation”, without accurate facts to back it up could get someone hurt, or even killed. So we discourage it until the facts are in. Then we compile a report so the facts can be shared and hopefully we can all learn from them.

I’m not an “insider”; I’m just some guy that loves air racing. Another ramp rat with an opinion. I can’t tell you what to do, only make suggestions from my perspective. The only one who can tell you what to do on this site is Wayne. And, as Wayne has reported in the past, having to ban a member or censor a post is an agonizing decision, and not done lightly.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Cheers.

Well Said.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140427X21627&key=1

Hmmmmmmmmm.......this enough to put an end to the speculation?

[Race#21]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Tue, May 13, 2014

NTSB Releases Prelim In SF Bay Mid-Air Collision
Pilots Had Been In Communication When The Accident Occurred
The NTSB has released its preliminary report in a mid-air collision late last month that resulted in the fatal injury of the pilot of a Cessna 210 over San Francisco Bay.


According to the report, On April 27, 2014, about 1606 Pacific daylight time, the Cessna 210E, N4962U, and a Hawker Sea Fury, N20SF, collided in flight near Port Richmond, California. Sanders Aircraft, Inc., was operating both airplanes under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The private pilot in the Cessna sustained fatal injuries; the commercial pilot and one passenger in the Sea Fury were not injured. The Cessna was destroyed during the accident sequence, and the Sea Fury sustained substantial damage to the empennage. Both cross-country personal flights departed Half Moon Bay, California; the Sea Fury departed about 1530 and the Cessna departed at an unknown time. Both airplanes were en route to Eagle's Nest Airport, Ione, California. Visual meteorological conditions (VMC) prevailed, and no flight plans had been filed.

The National Transportation Safety Board investigator-in-charge (IIC) interviewed the Sea Fury pilot. The Sea Fury pilot stated the he and the Cessna pilot had flown their airplanes to Half Moon Bay to display them at an open house for the airport.

The pilot reported that after departure, he flew over the airport, and rendezvoused with a Beechcraft A36 Bonanza for a photo shoot over the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, California. They flew several 360-degree patterns over the bridge, completed their photo work, and he set his course for the return to Ione.

While en route the Sea Fury pilot broadcast on a common frequency, and the Cessna pilot responded with his position. The Sea Fury pilot made visual contact with the Cessna, which was ahead and to his left. He broadcast to the Cessna pilot that he would pass low and to the left. The Cessna pilot responded that it would be a good picture. The Sea Fury pilot replied that probably not due to the speed differential; the Sea Fury airspeed was about 200 miles per hour. The Sea Fury pilot proceeded on a path that he thought would allow adequate separation; however, as he was passing the Cessna, he felt and heard a thump and he realized that the two airplanes had collided. He pulled up and looked over his shoulder and he observed the Cessna inverted and going down.

The Sea Fury pilot stated that he concentrated on flying his airplane, and initiated a climb, and conducted a controllability check to determine that he could control the airplane in the current configuration. He wanted to avoid populated areas, so he continued toward his home airport. While en route he contacted company personnel, who decided to fly another company airplane to meet and examine the Sea Fury's condition. The Sea Fury pilot lowered the landing gear, and did a controllability check to include turns. He lowered the flaps, and repeated the testing. He reduced airspeed to a landing compatible speed of 130 mph, and checked controllability again. Determining that he had adequate control to land, he made a full stop landing at his home airport.

The Sea Fury is silver in color and the Cessna has blue wingtips with blue paint on the leading edge of both wings, on top of the cowling, and along the sides of the fuselage.

During the postaccident examination of the Sea Fury it was noted that the top remaining portion of the vertical stabilizer was crushed aft and down with blue paint transfer marks on the aft portion of the remaining metal. The operator reported that the missing vertical stabilizer section was about 12 inches long. The rudder had crush damage. The right elevator separated outboard of the middle hinge and about 3 feet of the elevator was missing. About 3 feet of the outboard section of the right horizontal stabilizer was missing. The outboard fracture surface was jagged and angular, and the upper surface had crushed inboard in an accordion fashion. Blue paint transfer marks and scratches were observed on the upper surface and within the folds of the metal.

The Cessna descended into San Pablo Bay, and the wreckage was retrieved on April 30. The recovered wreckage consisted of the fuselage and the engine. The left wing was not located. The propeller separated from the crankshaft, and was not located.