Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

[Fence Sence]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

I have some friends in the Bay Area that have been asking me a question I really don't have an exact answer for. I think I know why but, why not ask the knowledge of this board (Mr. Haskin) the question so I can give an intelligent answer to those even less knowledgable than me.

Was it appropriate for the Sea Fury pilot to continue on to Eagles Nest instead of diverting to a closer airport? My answer is an emphatic "Yes!", but I don't have the professional knowledge or credentials to say why with any conviction.

If anyone wants to respond with raw emotion, could you do everyone a favor and shut up? Seriously. It's a discussion, not a personal attack.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Not an "expert" by any stretch (even been called a "fence bird"), but I do have some relevant experience in high performance aircraft and formation flying. Here are a couple of things I posted in another forum the day after the accident. This was the first thing that came to mind when I heard Korey flew back to Ione after having a collision out over the bay, but I didn't then (and don't now) have any personal knowledge as to why he made the decisions he did on that day.

I don't have any information on this specific decision by the pilot of Dreadnought, but I'll add this into the discussion.

Following a midair, or any other event where a high performance aircraft receives structural damage but is still flying and there is not another immediate need to land as soon as possible (ergo, fire, engine flameout, etc), it is normal procedure to perform a "controllability check" prior to attempting to land. This consists of configuring gear and flaps for approach, and then incrementally slowing to see what the slowest speed is where the aircraft can maintain control. The idea is that if you can safely get down to a logical landing speed and still have enough control surface deflection to maneuver the aircraft, then you go ahead and attempt the landing. If you can't get slow enough to make a good landing, then you keep your speed, climb up to a safe altitude and location, and bail out.

These checks take a bit of time and distance to accomplish, so you can either circle over one location and do them, or do the checks in a straight line (while you are pointing toward the home 'drome); the time in the air and distance flown is going to happen either way. 70 miles is not all that far to cover while doing this stuff, and the "home field advantage" has the benefit of people and equipment that know your aircraft type, and the pilot probably knows the runway and area better. Getting a good radio line of sight to the home field would be helpful for anyone you are talking to while doing a controllability check, as well as depending on the flight time, they could launch another aircraft to form up on you, visually assess the damage, and act as safety chase.

Given that reports say the vertical and horizontal stabs on Dreadnought were "substantially damaged" as I posted previously, it would make sense that the pilot might spend considerable time doing controllability checks prior to landing. There may have even been other damage they had to work through, like the gear not coming down, or something like that. If this was the case, he was probably on the radio to the rest of the Sanders folks at Ione during the process, too, while they broke out the Flight Manual and read him any relevant checklists or other data (since expanded flight manuals aren't usually carried in single-seat fighters or 2-seat trainers).

So, again, I can't comment on this specifically, but the fact that they kept flying reportedly for an hour post-collision and to their home airfield rather than landing immediately does not surprise me.

As I posted earlier, the home field presents a number of important advantages that [the closest airfield to the collision] wouldn't.

- Your own people on VHF who know your rare aircraft, have the technical data for your rare aircraft, and can be your "virtual wingman" by helping talk you through the process of handling the emergency, reading checklists, giving other ideas and information, etc
- The potential to have a similar aircraft (the Sanders folks have several Sea Furies) launch and be your chase aircraft -- to give you a visual once-over and help assess the damage, as well as perform all of the other roles a wingman does during an emergency (basically someone to monitor the big picture while you focus on the stick-and-rudder small picture of handing the emergency).

We're getting pretty far into technique here. The important take-away is that not all emergencies are "land as soon as possible" -- some are "land as soon as conditions permit", and this very well may have been one of those times. Having not been in the cockpit and without knowing a lot of other details, we are not really in a position to second-guess the judgment used or decision made.

I believe that these thoughts above were well borne out by the preliminary NTSB report that was recently released. The NTSB summary said, in part:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140427X21627&key=1

The Sea Fury pilot stated that he concentrated on flying his airplane, and initiated a climb, and conducted a controllability check to determine that he could control the airplane in the current configuration. He wanted to avoid populated areas, so he continued toward his home airport. While en route he contacted company personnel, who decided to fly another company airplane to meet and examine the Sea Fury's condition. The Sea Fury pilot lowered the landing gear, and did a controllability check to include turns. He lowered the flaps, and repeated the testing. He reduced airspeed to a landing compatible speed of 130 mph, and checked controllability again. Determining that he had adequate control to land, he made a full stop landing at his home airport.

[Fence Sence]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Thanks Mr. Haskin. I really appreciate your insights.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Class E airspace in front of you and a bunch of farm land or class C/D airspace filled with tons of traffic and population. I'm no pilot but if I had to choose.

[Race#21]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Class E airspace in front of you and a bunch of farm land or class C/D airspace filled with tons of traffic and population. I'm no pilot but if I had to choose.

All choices, yes. Post trauma, yes. See my 04/28.

Semper Fi;

[Warbirds45]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

I live in the bay area. I have been asked, why did they fly that far. One comment was, that's 400 miles. I spoke with one of the pilots from Ione, it is about 110 miles from Half Moon Bay to Ione. The 2 aircraft involved, were 20 to 30 miles from the airport they departed,

If the aircraft was traveling at 150 to 200 kts, that is this than 30 minutes in the air.

I would think that time was well spent accessing the aircraft's condition and flight capabilities.

warbirds45

[Arctic Cat]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

I had the same question at first, but the report explains what occurred and why pretty good. Its not like a hit and run car accident, the pilot had to leave the scene no matter what at some point. He was very wise and responsible in how he handled the plane after contact. It also appears that he co-operated completely with the FAA in the investigation.
Had he flown to Ione, rolled it into the hanger and locked the doors and when the authorities showed up played dumb and said "we don't know where it is or who was flying it" that would be a different story.
The fact that the person stated it was 400 miles away, is the first clue that they might not know what they are talking about!

[GeeBeeZ1931]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

A little off topic... but

Which race aircraft has ever seen 500mph IAS while racing at Reno ?
I would buy a mid 400's, but not 500.

Dago Red, Strega, September Fury, Rare Bear(?) and Voodoo(?) as I remember.

[Sky Critter]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

500 mph TAS (true air speed) would be around 545 mph IAS (indicated air speed). The difference changes with altitude and temperature.

[cheapskater]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Why hasn't the pilot of the Dreadnought been named in this accident? Will this accident prevent Dreadnought from racing in 2014 due to the extensive stab, elevator, and fin damage reported elsewhere?

[ChrisMX105]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Pilot was named, Not my place to repeat it.

From a friend who spoke to one of the Sanders at PRS "We'll be here in September"

All told this event was a horrible accident, I do not know those involved however it is almost daily that I think of it. I feel deeply for those who lost a friend, a spouse, a father, a child. I can only hope that in time the wounds will heal and they will find peace.

[GeeBeeZ1931]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Why hasn't the pilot of the Dreadnought been named in this accident? Will this accident prevent Dreadnought from racing in 2014 due to the extensive stab, elevator, and fin damage reported elsewhere?

Honestly most of us would rather NOT know. It was likely someone well liked and known by a lot of us and we would rather not be looking at them as some kind of killer or having any second thoughts about their ability as a flier for an accident.
Consider this similar to someone coming home from combat. do you really WANT to know how many people they ended? NO! and most of us know better than to ask them.

[440_Magnum]

Re: Sea Fury & Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

Honestly most of us would rather NOT know. It was likely someone well liked and known by a lot of us and we would rather not be looking at them as some kind of killer or having any second thoughts about their ability as a flier for an accident.
Consider this similar to someone coming home from combat. do you really WANT to know how many people they ended? NO! and most of us know better than to ask them.

Seriously? I mean, SERIOUSLY?!? <thinking long and hard if I should continue this response and risk offense, ... and concluding I shouldn't>

Sheesh.

[ezeflierid]

Re: Sea Fury &amp; Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

500 mph TAS (true air speed) would be around 545 mph IAS (indicated air speed). The difference changes with altitude and temperature.

If I read this right, it's backwards... At altitudes above sea level and temps above standard, TAS is higher than IAS. For instance:

Indicated Altitude: 5500MSL
Altimeter: 29.00
Temperature: 86F
IAS (as seen on the airspeed indicator): 500mph
TAS (Calculated, or close to speed over the ground assuming calm wind): 577mph

As ambient air pressure diminishes (either because of climbing, or rising temperature), the impact pressure on the air frame (what the ASI measures) also diminishes, reducing the deflection of the airspeed indicator for any given speed.

Cheers..
Matt-

[Sky Critter]

Re: Sea Fury &amp; Cessna 210 mid air over San Pablo Bay

If I read this right, it's backwards... At altitudes above sea level and temps above standard, TAS is higher than IAS. For instance:

Indicated Altitude: 5500MSL
Altimeter: 29.00
Temperature: 86F
IAS (as seen on the airspeed indicator): 500mph
TAS (Calculated, or close to speed over the ground assuming calm wind): 577mph

As ambient air pressure diminishes (either because of climbing, or rising temperature), the impact pressure on the air frame (what the ASI measures) also diminishes, reducing the deflection of the airspeed indicator for any given speed.

Cheers..
Matt-

You are correct. I wrote it backwards.