Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

[planecrazy2]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

Answer to thread title..............NO !!

Ok Boomer.

You will probably be dead in 50 years so you are not thinking ahead as to what the NCAR will look like in 50 years. If you think WWll era birds will still be duking it out, I fear you would be mistaken.

Let these kids think ahead. Let them advance the sport. If an electric class is to be, empower these kids to succeed. If fusion engines are on the table, then embrace it.

Sure, there is no substitute to the roar of 35,000hp diving for the best line, but it can't last. IC engines are not the future, they are the past.

[chrs3590]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

Ok Boomer.

Really?? Original ...


For the record, I'm a millennial and I agree it's NOT time for RARA to introduce an electric class (which is the only question I believe supercub was responding too). The technology is coming along but it's not there yet, nor is there enough readily available and feasible electric aircraft that can race in a course setting like Reno ... especially when you consider just how precious every moment of air race/show time is at Reno.

By all means, one day things will be different, the technology will continue to advance and yes, one day there probably (hopefully!) will be an electric class of racers at Reno. But the reality is neither you nor I know what the future holds at RARA ...

[supercub]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

Really?? Original ...


For the record, I'm a millennial and I agree it's NOT time for RARA to introduce an electric class (which is the only question I believe supercub was responding too). The technology is coming along but it's not there yet, nor is there enough readily available and feasible electric aircraft that can race in a course setting like Reno ... especially when you consider just how precious every moment of air race/show time is at Reno.

By all means, one day things will be different, the technology will continue to advance and yes, one day there probably (hopefully!) will be an electric class of racers at Reno. But the reality is neither you nor I know what the future holds at RARA ...

Exactly, I'm not against an electric class somewhere down the road, but I don't think now is the time. Personally, I'd rather see a turbine class, say of unlimited's or some sort of sport class turbines. just a thought.

[planecrazy2]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

Ha! Noted Chris, you are not a boomer, like only 99% of the members of this site are boomers. Ha! Glad to see both you and supercub are at least open to the idea of electric powerplants in racers. I have had this come up before in posts and was surprised over the old timers dismissing electrics outright.

Yes I agree on turbines for sport class racers! Have advocated this for years. Seems it would be a natural progression, and much safer IMHO. I doubt there would be enough support for retrofitting warbirds in the unlimited class with turbine powerplants.

Cheers!

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

Ha! Noted Chris, you are not a boomer, like only 99% of the members of this site are boomers. Ha! Glad to see both you and supercub are at least open to the idea of electric powerplants in racers. I have had this come up before in posts and was surprised over the old timers dismissing electrics outright.

Yes I agree on turbines for sport class racers! Have advocated this for years. Seems it would be a natural progression, and much safer IMHO. I doubt there would be enough support for retrofitting warbirds in the unlimited class with turbine powerplants.

Cheers!

Boomer for sure here... 70 years old next July.... just about hard for me to believe.. I'm still stuck in the 50-60's when I grew up, and in the 40's that I looked back at with awe.

We really need to look at the history of air racing when thinking about its future.

First air race was with what was available and the fastest won. There were not too many options for entrants!

As Air Racing evolved, military advancements and war surplus wound up changing the face of the sport and it evolved into what we have today.

If recently retired military aircraft in civilian hands were going to continue being the top stars of the sport, what we see today would be wildly different!

As technology outpaced Air Racing's ability to actually include the fastest airplanes, including the latest retired military fleet, the sport evolved into today.

Over the decades after WWII and the abundant supply of surplus chithot airplanes to race evaporated, here we are.

Back to where we were in Air Racing before WWII..

I'm rambling but, what I'm trying to say is we have to change with the times or we will die as a relevant sport!

Does not matter if it's racing man piloted drones..

Whatever the fastest aircraft of the era are, we should be racing them at RENO!

Make sense?

Not going pre-read/edit just going to throw out that we probably have to rethink how we look at Air Racing if we want it to continue deeper into this century.....

[CubersWrist]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

And to take Wayne's post a step further, there were huge amounts of private and government prize money used to motivate people to pursue air racing. The only way racing is "profitable" is when it doubles as R&D for a commercial product or development for a military weapon. Look at how the Wedell Williams 44 morphed into the P-26 and look at how Formula E car racing is being used as a test bed for commercial electric vehicles. And then most famously the recent Ford V Ferrari movie is very clear that Ford was only interested in racing to sell more street cars. That's the business we work in and are fans of. Reno's current state is obvious when you realizes most of the current classes haven't fulfilled that role in years (or decades?) and that's why we have the current "purse problem".

Electric power whether you hate the sound or not, is at the same stage as the 1930s. On the aero and structures side, we have the advantage of composites and knowing how to make a stable airplane so as to not repeat the Gee Bees and other unstable racers. And most importantly for the future of air racing, is there is a lot of money interested in making this work. And anything that helps one class, helps the others.

I assure team Outlaw is working as fast as it can to give you all something to look at and over-analyze. I'm doing motor mount stress calculations, FEA, CFD, etc etc. so we are making progress, but we are going to be thorough. And thorough is boring. So bear with us, and we'll give you a good show when we are sure it's safe to do so.

[wadeh]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

Whatever the fastest aircraft of the era are, we should be racing them at RENO!

Here's the problem with that:

We already have a speed limit on the course. The jet class is coming up on it with aircraft that don't come anywhere near the fastest of this era. If they were to allow swept wings and afterburners, they'd be capable exceeding the speed limit with 50 year old machines. And this doesn't even account for the fact that we're probably not very far from unmanned aircraft that would be capable of running the course supersonic.

Once the technology exceeds what the venue can support (or what the human pilot can support), it changes the nature of the sport. Instead of racing as fast as you can, it becomes an exercise in who can get the closest to the established limits without exceeding them.

There's nothing wrong with this. Bracket racing in autos is hugely popular, but it doesn't do anything for me. I'm also not a big fan of Nascar. I'm pretty sure that Formula 1 (auto racing) tried for years to ban traction control technology, but eventually gave up, because they just couldn't prevent cheating because it was too easy to hide the technology. It probably made for some interesting drama, but it's just not what I am looking for with racing.

I'm not sure that I could justify why I feel the way that I do. I have no problem with defining parameters like airframe powerplant design that must be met, but without any restrictions beyond the physical parameters. I love the sport class. But once you start artificially slowing things down with fuel flow restrictions and the like, then I start to lose interest. And that would inevitably happen with turbine or electric power plants.

Frankly, I think that the sport class as it currently exists is the best thing that's happened to air racing at Reno in the entire time that I've been going.

Where I do agree with one of the points of this thread, is that (unfortunately) there doesn't seem to be a lot of future in the current unlimited class. The equipment is just getting too rare and valuable for it to be viable.

[Colbourne]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

These motors might be suitable.

https://newatlas.com/automotive/hyperpower-high-density-electric-motor-hyperloop/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=e8c56d1c41-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_16_12_47&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-e8c56d1c41-90223594

The QFM-360-X motor is relatively small at 430 mm in diameter and about 180 mm long. It has a 1,340-hp (1,000-kW) output as a single unit, but is scaleable and modular so with a common shaft, could be built to deliver 13,400 hp (10,000 kW).

[knot4u]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

Here's the problem with that:

We already have a speed limit on the course. The jet class is coming up on it with aircraft that don't come anywhere near the fastest of this era. If they were to allow swept wings and afterburners, they'd be capable exceeding the speed limit with 50 year old machines. And this doesn't even account for the fact that we're probably not very far from unmanned aircraft that would be capable of running the course supersonic.

Once the technology exceeds what the venue can support (or what the human pilot can support), it changes the nature of the sport. Instead of racing as fast as you can, it becomes an exercise in who can get the closest to the established limits without exceeding them.

There's nothing wrong with this. Bracket racing in autos is hugely popular, but it doesn't do anything for me. I'm also not a big fan of Nascar. I'm pretty sure that Formula 1 (auto racing) tried for years to ban traction control technology, but eventually gave up, because they just couldn't prevent cheating because it was too easy to hide the technology. It probably made for some interesting drama, but it's just not what I am looking for with racing.

I'm not sure that I could justify why I feel the way that I do. I have no problem with defining parameters like airframe powerplant design that must be met, but without any restrictions beyond the physical parameters. I love the sport class. But once you start artificially slowing things down with fuel flow restrictions and the like, then I start to lose interest. And that would inevitably happen with turbine or electric power plants.

Frankly, I think that the sport class as it currently exists is the best thing that's happened to air racing at Reno in the entire time that I've been going.

Where I do agree with one of the points of this thread, is that (unfortunately) there doesn't seem to be a lot of future in the current unlimited class. The equipment is just getting too rare and valuable for it to be viable.

I agree. As far as I can recall when I first found out and started helping the rules were piston power, propeller driven and the pilot had to have O2, that's why they call them Unlimiteds. I'm going to say something that makes me sad but I have to admit those days are over, I think about the Can-Am series and the parallels are obvious.

[CubersWrist]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

Yes, the days of $5000 Mustangs and $500 engines are long gone. WWII was 80 years ago. All the hardware and airframes are more rare and more expensive. If we wanted to fix this we would need to start WWIII and somehow get all countries to agree to only use IC engines in their aircraft.

The key to keeping reno going for my generation and the next is finding something to fill the gap. You older folks who got to experience the good old days probably won't like it. RARA (and the world) is changing their marketing to the millenials as they become a larger percentage of the working and spending population.

Now I've had people read this in the past and it turns into STOL vs unlimiteds fight. And that's not true. Because no one is saying get rid of the unlimiteds. This isn't an either or. We can and do have both. But as the class dwindles, RARA has to try something (anything) to fill the schedule and attract new fans.

And that's where electric comes in. (Actually electric is independent to RARA but you get the idea). I assure you, to the team members, the ones that actually prepare the planes for the show, working on electric is the same as an unlimited. It's a new challenge, but the same level or preparation and dedication. And I'll go a step farther in saying the electric is bringing in an incredible list of new sponsors and team members that air racing has needed.

[Colbourne]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

https://newatlas.com/aircraft/microwave-air-plasma-thruster/?utm_source=New%20Atlas%20Subscribers&utm_campaign=c999f224ba-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_05_09_11_00&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-c999f224ba-90223594&fbclid=IwAR0HqoAiEPr_mUtQYLgdaq858S3DEsL28bcTbFxtaI93558VHvHQ5iY-_wE

This is an interesting alternative to using propellers.
"In efficiency terms, the propulsion force at 400 W and 1.45 cubic meters of air per hour was 11 Newtons, representing a conversion of power into thrust at a rate of 28 N/kW. Assuming linear extrapolation, the team speculated it could take a Tesla Model S battery capable of outputting 310 kW and turn that into something like an 8,500-N propulsive thrust force."

"By means of comparison, the Airbus E-Fan electric airplane uses a pair of 30-kW electric ducted fans, which combine to produce 1,500 N of thrust. That would imply an efficiency of 25 N/kW, which is not quite as good as the first prototype assembled in this lab. The researchers say this thrust efficiency is already "comparable to those of commercial airplane jet engines."

[Jukka]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

https://newatlas.com/aircraft/microw...58VHvHQ5iY-_wE

This is an interesting alternative to using propellers.
"In efficiency terms, the propulsion force at 400 W and 1.45 cubic meters of air per hour was 11 Newtons, representing a conversion of power into thrust at a rate of 28 N/kW. Assuming linear extrapolation, the team speculated it could take a Tesla Model S battery capable of outputting 310 kW and turn that into something like an 8,500-N propulsive thrust force."

"By means of comparison, the Airbus E-Fan electric airplane uses a pair of 30-kW electric ducted fans, which combine to produce 1,500 N of thrust. That would imply an efficiency of 25 N/kW, which is not quite as good as the first prototype assembled in this lab. The researchers say this thrust efficiency is already "comparable to those of commercial airplane jet engines."

I just want to inform you that I am designing an aeroplane again...electric...and it is pretty sporty. If tweaked it might do 200 mph.

[Colbourne]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

More progress on Rolls Royce electric racer

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rolls-royce_accel-netzero-worldrecord-activity-6714878797084196864-P1Ns/

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2020/24-09-2020-rr-completes-ground-testing-of-technology-set-to-power-worlds-fastest-electric-plane.aspx

[CubersWrist]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Isn't it about time Reno introduced an electric class

More progress on Rolls Royce electric racer

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rolls-royce_accel-netzero-worldrecord-activity-6714878797084196864-P1Ns/

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/pr...ric-plane.aspx

Fuse sure looks NXT'ish....