Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

[AAFO_WSagar]

I started this in another thread but thought it was truly thread creep...

Amen to THAT,bro. I could watch Mustangs day in/day out; stockers,modifieds,racing, aerobatics..heck, just taxing. Love those beasties. Dago,Strega,Stilleto,Galloping Ghost,Jeannie,Georgia Mae,Red Baron,Sumthin' Else,Precious Metal...love them all. But I think for me (kinda like girlfriends), I've got a soft-spot in the ticker for the first: Roto-Finish Special. My first race and she won it.

What if... in an effort to expand the competition, make the sport safer, make it "affordable" to more pilot/owners.... Limit all aircraft to stock motors with a "pop-off" valve to limit boost to a level that would ensure that the engine would last for many runs at race speed.

ALL inspected and approved aero mods would be allowed.

I brought up restrictor plate style racing over the years and have always been less than well received. What say now? In the face of losing the sport from a race course that has become "out of square" with the needs of the airplanes at the speeds they are going. We've talked about "G suits" and other means to keep the pilot's head in the game, what would be so wrong about just slowing down a bit?

So I'll ask the question: IF it was proven that it would extend the life of the sport, make it safer, bring in more racers... would you support the idea?

[Race5]

Re: PRS Tuesday

What if... in an effort to expand the competition, make the sport safer, make it "affordable" to more pilot/owners.... Limit all aircraft to stock motors with a "pop-off" valve to limit boost to a level that would ensure that the engine would last for many runs at race speed.

ALL inspected and approved aero mods would be allowed.

I brought up restrictor plate style racing over the years and have always been less than well received. What say now? In the face of losing the sport from a race course that has become "out of square" with the needs of the airplanes at the speeds they are going. We've talked about "G suits" and other means to keep the pilot's head in the game, what would be so wrong about just slowing down a bit?

So I'll ask the question: IF it was proven that it would extend the life of the sport, make it safer, bring in more racers... would you support the idea?

My guess, and hopefully some fully qualified to answer this will, is that a pop Off valve would not work, nor would it be all that safe. Imagine if you were flying right off the guy beside you and he suddenly went backwards when his popped off. Not good for formation flying. Not to mention the engine damage I think a pop off valve would cause. Remember, these engine opperate in a totally different environment from a turbocharged race car engine.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: PRS Tuesday

My guess, and hopefully some fully qualified to answer this will, is that a pop Off valve would not work, nor would it be all that safe. Imagine if you were flying right off the guy beside you and he suddenly went backwards when his popped off. Not good for formation flying. Not to mention the engine damage I think a pop off valve would cause. Remember, these engine opperate in a totally different environment from a turbocharged race car engine.

Hey bud, split this off into a separate thread with a poll just for chits and giggles..

I would not argue the danger of a sudden loss of manifold pressure caused by a sudden pop off, but mechanically, if you can throw boost rates into the ceiling, as is done to get the HP we see in race engines, then surely, a method to limit that boost could be created that would not affect safety negatively..

Again, we're talking about ways of extending the life of the sport, and this is purely hypothetical....

[V1670]

Re: Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

Got my Nomex at the ready, cuz I'll probably get "flamed" for this, but actually, I think that's a pretty good idea. Rather than a SUDDEN pop-off, a progressive or a limit to boost. Seeing Stevo whistle off into the distance is kinda cool, but I like close/tight racing. You really see some good dust-ups in the Silver class. Probably the most BORING race I EVER saw was the "Super Gold" (remember that?) Shelton came roaring by, then wait.....wait.....wait and there goes (IIRC) Dreadnaught...............and then.................Risky Business. It's been mentioned that Sport Class is the wave-of-the-future, but anything to save,build,keep the Unlimiteds as the premier class is good in my book.

[Desertdawg]

Re: PRS Tuesday

Hey bud, split this off into a separate thread with a poll just for chits and giggles..

I would not argue the danger of a sudden loss of manifold pressure caused by a sudden pop off, but mechanically, if you can throw boost rates into the ceiling, as is done to get the HP we see in race engines, then surely, a method to limit that boost could be created that would not affect safety negatively..

Again, we're talking about ways of extending the life of the sport, and this is purely hypothetical....

Wayne,

We must be sharing the same ESP channel when we are enjoying a beer. Yesterday I was thinking restrictor plates as well, except, I thinking about the new unlimited Cub class

Along the same lines, restrictor plates sure messed up racing for Nascar, caution flag central. Not sure planes bunched up would be a good thing.

Now a thought, look at the pay out for Nascar winners. If we want to ensure a real unlimited class, we need to get the gold win payout up there so they have something to chase.

[Samuel]

Re: Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

WARNING! Racing lunatic opinion to follow.


I think it is a bad idea. If you look at other racing series (non air racing of course), rules like a restrictor plate just make the cost go up as everyone launches expensive research projects to find speed in other areas, or ways to get more horsepower out of a restrictor plate engine. I am not sure Reno has a horsepower problem. Personally I think the next step is propeller research or custom airframes like Tsunami.

I think there are two ideas that could save Reno. First is to create a points system so that the champion is the one with the most points (not necessarily the winner on Sunday), and second to have a second race during the year. A re-adjusted points system would build in some strategy to the race vs. running wide open (hard on equipment) for 2-3 days just to get a pole on Sunday. The second race would allow more exposure for sponsors, more fan involvement, and and more points to be earned, which would effect the strategy of the race for the championship, making for more interesting racing.

But what do I know?

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: PRS Tuesday

Now a thought, look at the pay out for Nascar winners. If we want to ensure a real unlimited class, we need to get the gold win payout up there so they have something to chase.

Hey Dawg, the only problem with that is, we've been trying to get the purse up for decades, it didn't work. I'm just trying to think a "bit out of the box"... I mean, really, if the fast guys were fighting over 450 mph bragging rights, we might just see more of them willing to risk their business (lol) to bring their airplane.

The guys who wanted to slick up their airframes, do the mods like what Tiger and others have done over the years, they'd be the top doggies... They would be much closer, I think, racing but I doubt it would "bunch up"..

Biggest advantage, if we're talking limiting to combat max or TO power only, a guy could race his motor, probably, for years and years.

Kind of take what we've learned on how to make the merlin or griffon last, then don't just use it up in one week.

I think we'd have a lot more memorable racing, far fewer disappointing maydays with broken engines and a much healthier sport...

Save the top speed runs for record attempts... use whatever your $$ can buy you to set records with insane blower power.. blow up, your own fault. You either get a new "race" motor... which would be a "modified stocker" using a specific blower power limit...

I also have my nomex on with this but I'm pretty certain, it would be a good thing..

You have the floor...

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

Big issue here is this. With all the different powerplant combos we have how would you come up with a restriction formula? If you limit it to rated take off power that wouldn't work. Most of the big radials and our griffon are already doing that. So what you really have here is restrictions only on Voodoo and Strega.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

So what you really have here is restrictions only on Voodoo and Strega.

I don't even have my own hands on my own purse strings, so I'm never going to advocate something like this other than for the sake of argument.. and... I think it (the idea) deserves thought.

I TOTALLY agree with all the arguments against, however, in the face of reality, I wind up looking again and think hummn.. "what if?"

Many details would have to be worked out but again, my idea is based on, number one option... keep going on as we are and watch the sport die because to compete at the very top level, you have to find and then dispose of, many pounds of dollars. IF, there were a way to keep guys like Tiger, Whiteside... the rest of the few who still have interest in racing at these speeds and altitudes.. (yea, those guys are running out too).. but WHAT IFF... a simple limit on HP could open up a new horizon on how to go faster.. i.e. more slick, more fast.. more HP, more fast.. oh yea, we can't dig HP out of our asses any more...

I'm layin the target on my back and waiting to be laid out!

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

Mike, on a more serious level, cubic inches versus boost formula's would have to be worked out. I suggest max emergency/combat and go with that... whatever that rpm/boost might be, that's it... whatever the original designers decided was the limit for a given engine, that is where your limits are set...

To the ignorant (me) seems fairly simple to implement, would open up true competition based on realistic expectations from an engine in a given scenario..

flame on

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

The best have set the high mark. It's up to use that dream to beat them to catch them.

[N22252]

Re: Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

Big issue here is this. With all the different powerplant combos we have how would you come up with a restriction formula? If you limit it to rated take off power that wouldn't work. Most of the big radials and our griffon are already doing that. So what you really have here is restrictions only on Voodoo and Strega.

...and the big draw for the Unlimited races is exactly what the name implies... Unlimited Horsepower. While I always cringe at drawing parallels between NCAR and NASCAR, I feel that part of the appeal at Reno is the relatively simple concept. For me, NASCAR has become less interesting as they've fattened up the rule book over the years. It's really tedious to have to watch an hour of television commentary to figure out how the strategy has to change each week to adapt to a new rule change for qualifying, pitting, points calculating, etc., etc., etc....

The real formula for restriction in the Unlimited class is where it always has been... in materials science, thermodynamics, scarcity of parts, and the depth of the owner's pockets. This was true in 1964, but today the parts are more scarce and the pockets have to be deeper.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

So, because we refuse to accept anything other than true "unlimited" we wind up with only memories?

I'd rather accept the reality of limiting what it expected out of these war horses than never see them compete at their limits!

All we're talking about here is putting a cap on just how far you can expect to push an "ancient" design... we can argue all day on how HP caps would kill the sport, but we're going to be doing it over an ever diminishing field.

Rather than stifle innovation, I think a boost cap would build it, just in a different way. What Mike said about their boost levels is really intriguing! It suggests that we go back to the old formula of bigger displacement, more horsepower.. Crap, we're really only talking the "Dreadnought" syndrome here. They did it with more displacement, the Merlin crowd does it with very careful modifications... VERY EXPENSIVE careful mods! And those mods break, regularly.

Anyway, not trying to stifle discussion, I've been very quiet for a while on the board and I'm feeling more like "playing" right now and I'm liking hearing the ideas of the true fans of air racing!

[Arctic Cat]

Re: Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

The issue is the sky rocketing costs. Developing a formula for a fair restrictor plate across 6 different engine platforms by an organization that is still begging for money to make insurance payments each year to then be implemented by teams that are already crying the blues about what it costs vs. The size of the purse doesn't sound like much of a solution to me.
The unlimited restrictor plate racing class already exists and had something like 40 pilots scheduled for PRS. The top sport class is approaching the speeds of all but the very top unlimited class planes. Dump some more money in the prize bucket in that class and we will see speeds and great racing.

[cheapskater]

Re: Could Restrictor Plate Rules Save Unlimited Air Racing?

Geez I needed a good laugh today. How about the unlimiteds go low tech and tow a parachute around the course. Or race with their landing gear down. Would eliminate all those "can't seem to get the wheels to work" problems. Or stuff exhaust restrictors right up there where it would do some good. Or make them race on regular unleaded gas. Or synchronize the air races with Burning Man to attract the rich, young techies! Lotsa room and naked girls out there at Black Rock.