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THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

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  • THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

    There's a constant confusion as to the Unlimited race course, it's changes, and the so called 'optimum race path'.

    Let's lay-out the specifics....

    The attacks on our country, 9/11/2001
    RARA and the races also suffered, as the races were cancelled mid-week. (During qualifying) Nothing could fly. RARA lost a bunch of $$$.

    However, they managed to come back..and bring us racing in 2002. And we had racing. Thanks RARA and Fans!

    Note; Skip was at the helm of Dago, and he showed it's awesome potential by posting a qualifying speed of 497 and change.

    But unfortunately, still no 500mph...

    in 2002, the new 'JET' class had started..in hopes of gaining fans and exposure..but...well we know the outcome of that.

    For those attending the races for at least the last two decades, you know how elusive the 500mph lap was (IS)

    ENTER RENO 2003

    RARA knew they had a hot bird returning in Skip, and Dago. They also knew that 500+ would bring in the fans. So what did they do? They devised a new means of measuring the race course(s) The excuse was, it would be more accurate..
    In reality, it was a false calculation, devised to give the papers the 500mph mark. And it worked.. Look at Dago's 2003 records.

    But guess what? Still NO REAL 500 mph Unlimited lap.

    And guess what.. using the old standard.. there still has not been one.

    Add to the confusion, the course has gotten smaller and smaller.
    After the events of 2011, the race course was seriously evaluated.

    Most people confuse the new post-2011 Unlimited course as being just smaller. This is not true. Ask the Gold Sport class pilots too.. It is a little bit smaller... But much more efficient. It is a faster course, regardless of it's size, than the 2011 course. Is it faster than the old 9+ mile course? Probably not.. But it's certainly faster than 2011.

    The details:

    Today RARA publishes the Unlimited course at 8.0851 miles.

    The actual course distance is: 7.9107 miles

    What's the difference?

    Published: Stevo's 2014 Q-Time 01:00.731 = 479.267mph
    Actual: Stevo's 2014 Q-Time 01:00.731 = 468.931mph

    What would a real 500mph lap be on the clock?? About 00:56.957

    Or, or a lap published at 511.023mph

    The design of today's course, excluding the height restrictions, has the most efficient course at Reno, to-date. It doesn't favor the Bearcat. If Penney was on the course again, #77 would have half a chance. I've observed the Gold Unlimited's now from #2,#4,#5,#8, and the West Valley. Hoot's flying the best line. Will Whiteside might be a close second. Either of those guys in a Healthy Strega, or Voodoo..and you'd see that 511 shattered.

    Would really like to see Stevo fly a different line between #6/8, and #2...


    Who wants to see a genuine 500mph lap in 2015? I know I want it!!

    - Joseph

  • #2
    Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

    Lyle or Skip.......

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

      Originally posted by ChrisMX105 View Post
      Lyle or Skip.......
      Correct you are.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

        you really believe a point to point measurement between the pylons to be more accurate than a radius based on g load? REALLY...
        Todd Smith

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

          The point-to-point is not supposed to be 'more accurate'. But it is what has been used in nearly every venue of air racing, since '46. So when comparing records, speeds, etc.. Yes.

          Did the Bendix 'calculate' how much distance is lost by the pilot's course, pattern, or any other deviation? No.

          There's no debate that the aircraft's actual GS in MPH is closer to the new method.

          But in reality.. who cares about that?

          It's speed around a measured course. Same as any other racing motorsport.

          1/4 mile is a 1/4 mile, regardless of how much rubber you leave at the start line.

          - Joseph

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

            so you are saying... we have done it wrong since the beginning so we should just keep doing it that way! lol
            the way they are doing it is the way it should be Done!
            a 1/4 mile is a valid measurement, an airplane can't physically fly point to point at the pylons so your comparison isn't valid!

            the restrictions on setting speed records were changed to take advantage of new technology! doesn't take anything away from what Lyle did in the bear. it doesn't take anything away from the guys doing it in the future... if anything it cements Lyle forever as a god in aviation.
            this idea of doing it this way because its always been done that way is stupid! its one of the defining failures in rara over the years...
            get over it!
            Last edited by thunderstangfan; 09-27-2014, 06:44 PM.
            Todd Smith

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

              I don't think anyone is saying either way is right or wrong, Just that it is an apples to oranges comparison. Can't say that the aircraft today are faster without taking the change into consideration.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

                Originally posted by thunderstangfan View Post
                you really believe a point to point measurement between the pylons to be more accurate than a radius based on g load? REALLY...
                Why yes, I think, most of us do! It's the only way to determine the distance between pylons in a real world environment. So, you think, measuring on a concept of how many "g'S" a given class might generate between pylons to be a measure that should be thrown into the mix of true timing between a given course distance waypoint and the untimate goal?

                Completely takes out the piloting skills of anyone able to outfly the "given" course..

                Hate to be harsh but I expect a really good argument supporting your stance to make this worthwhile.. You are actually, unless I'm off base and misunderstood the message, you are the first person to actually defend the G's versus Distance theory as being a realistic argument..

                Can't want to see where this one goes!

                Wayne Sagar
                "Pusher of Electrons"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

                  [QUOTE=AAFO_WSagar;122103]Why yes, I think, most of us do! It's the only way to determine the distance between pylons in a real world environment.
                  in a real world environment, how does a pilot fly the race course? I think he flys "around" it... you could never fly the plane in as short a course as the point to point measurement because you would have to fly over the pylons and I think that's called a "cut"!
                  I
                  Todd Smith

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

                    you guys need to think about g loading and how an airplane scrubs off speed in turns... ex Mike Brown in September fury with the short wings.
                    Todd Smith

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

                      [QUOTE=thunderstangfan;122105]
                      Originally posted by AAFO_WSagar View Post
                      Why yes, I think, most of us do! It's the only way to determine the distance between pylons in a real world environment.
                      in a real world environment, how does a pilot fly the race course? I think he flys "around" it... you could never fly the plane in as short a course as the point to point measurement because you would have to fly over the pylons and I think that's called a "cut"!
                      I
                      The point, as I understand it, regards the way we measure distance between pylons. In the old history, it was done by measuring a closed course, adding each pylon as the outer marker for that particular stick.

                      Along came Tom Gribbon, BLESS HIS SOUL!, who thought that that the equation needed to have an allowance to correct for the angle of the dangle..

                      Long there somewhere, we come about the great mystery of the dangle.. or, what happened to the world speed record and what can I do about it..



                      JUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!
                      Wayne Sagar
                      "Pusher of Electrons"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

                        Whole point is in the comparison, Like running a car on a 1/4 mile then changing it to show times in the 1/8th and calling it faster.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

                          Originally posted by thunderstangfan View Post
                          you guys need to think about g loading and how an airplane scrubs off speed in turns... ex Mike Brown in September fury with the short wings.
                          Nope. Distance around a set course.. Period! No angle of the dangle BS! Any measurement other than true distance.. Tom Gribbon, bless his soul, it just plain wrong!

                          Racing has to always be a point to point thing. If someone can bend that point and get there faster... COOL!

                          No way anyone can quantify that into a rule that can or could be enforced!

                          Back to monitor.. going to sleep monitor..

                          LOL!
                          Wayne Sagar
                          "Pusher of Electrons"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

                            lol... exactly!!! speed is measured by distance and time... so if your "measuring" an object against a distance that it could NEVER occupy then your measurement is wrong! it can't can't be explained any simpler than that...
                            Todd Smith

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: THE REAL SCOOP - Reno Unlimited Course

                              Originally posted by thunderstangfan View Post
                              so you are saying... we have done it wrong since the beginning so we should just keep doing it that way! lol
                              the way they are doing it is the way it should be Done!
                              a 1/4 mile is a valid measurement, an airplane can't physically fly point to point at the pylons so your comparison isn't valid!

                              the restrictions on setting speed records were changed to take advantage of new technology! doesn't take anything away from what Lyle did in the bear. it doesn't take anything away from the guys doing it in the future... if anything it cements Lyle forever as a god in aviation.
                              this idea of doing it this way because its always been done that way is stupid! its one of the defining failures in rara over the years...
                              get over it!

                              The problem is... until they decided to "lengthen" the course by not moving any pylons, you could compare speeds across the board. When it was a straight distance measurement, it was well understood that *actual* speeds on the course were much higher. It's like someone took a start and finish line that are exactly 60 miles apart and suddenly says, "well no, those two points are now 61.2 miles apart" without changing a damn thing. So, someone who previously held the record with a time of exactly 1 hour would have had a speed of 60MPH. So now with the new measurement, the next guy comes along and is able to beat the previous "record" even though it took a full minute longer to go the exact same distance... with a time of one hour and one minute, by the new math his speed is computed as 60.197MPH. Utter BS, and no... the record was NOT broken!
                              Last edited by RichH; 09-28-2014, 12:23 AM.

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