Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed attempt.

[SkyvanDelta]

The wikipedia page on the F104 & Darryl Greenamyer says:

"he was forced to eject when his landing gear failed to extend; a belly landing in the F-104 was considered too dangerous to attempt."

"he was unable to get the landing gear to lock before landing. As it was dangerous to land in this condition, he was forced to eject and the airplane was destroyed."

My question is: what does this airplane do if you attempt a belly landing with gear up? Does the nose dig in and cause it to flip end over end? Do the wings drag and cause it to flat spin? What does it do that other airplanes don't do and why? What other airplanes have this warning label on gear up belly landings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...hter_operators

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darryl_Greenamyer

[W J Pearce]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

I have no idea what I am talking about, so you have been warned.

The F-104 has a very high landing speed and a glides worse than iron crap. Its little, stubby wings are very thin and mounted high up on the round fuselage. As it touches down with gear up (at over 175 mph), one wing will eventually dig in and all sorts of bad stuff will happen. And that is with the gear completely up. If something is hanging down, the situation is worse. The combination of a design that is not belly landing friendly and a very high landing speed means that it is safer-to-eject. Here are some of the numbers:

Gear Down - below 260 kts
Flaps "Land" - 210 to 240 kts
Note: Keep your hand on the flap lever until proper flap extension and Boundary Layer Control system operation is verified. If significant unwanted roll is encountered, return flaps to their last position immediately
Maintain 200 kts during turn to final
Fly final approach at 170 kts + 5 kts per 1,000 lbs fuel over 1,000 lbs.
Note: Do not reduce power to less than 82% until touchdown, as the stall speed will increase due to the loss of air to the "BLC". Unwanted roll will also result as the engine decelerates unless you are on the ground.
Touchdown 150 kts minimum

If I remember correctly, a number of people got killed landing perfectly fine F-104s.

I believe your average high-performance tail-dragger is supposed to be a gear up or gear down. Landing with one main down results in a Furias like situation which is not good for plane or pilot. It is better to have the gear completely up and belly it in. I believe a few years back when Penny could not get the other main to extend on Rare Bear and was about out of fuel, he was going to bail. I think the he was trying the "last thing" before climbing and parting ways over the desert. Fortunately the main came down and locked. That is my recollection, but I'm happy to be corrected.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

I have no idea what I am talking about, so you have been warned.

Ahhhh.... this is why we all love you "nice Bill"...

[W J Pearce]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

Ahhhh.... this is why we all love you "nice Bill"...

Damn straight. The first part of that sentence is a common theme with so many people, but I like to give the reader a heads up.

[Lon Moer]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

Of course, rumor has it that..............

[wyhdah]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

That is correct Bill, maybe John will chime in but I remember him telling Hoover that he was on his way to jump out when the gear came down.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

Damn straight. The first part of that sentence is a common theme with so many people, but I like to give the reader a heads up.

How TRUE! Bill, you have an intimate background within the sport, and you are a recognized researcher of the history of the sport.

But... you do what you do with a really high level of "not taking yourself too seriously" in your delivery!



Re reading this...doubting my writing skills, I sincerely hope it comes off as the high compliment that I intended....

[W J Pearce]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

How TRUE! Bill, you have an intimate background within the sport, and you are a recognized researcher of the history of the sport.

But... you do what you do with a really high level of "not taking yourself too seriously" in your delivery!



Re reading this...doubting my writing skills, I sincerely hope it comes off as the high compliment that I intended....

Roger that and thank you sir!

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

[Big_Jim]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

"The rest of the story" (whether true or not) is that the Feds were after Darryl because of 'how' he acquired some of the parts for the RB-104. Some were trades with vendors who didn't have the authority to 'trade' some of the equipment in question. The underlying rumor that I have always heard is that when it came time to decide what to do at that moment of decision it solved the issue of how to deal with the Feds. If it's a wreck you can't confiscate it.

[SkyvanDelta]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

A few more questions.

What other airplanes have this warning label on gear up belly landings that you are to eject when the landing gear is not operating properly?

Since this was a military plane, what could or did Darryl do to this plane that the military could/would not do for this speed record? Did Darryl modify the plane to make it faster than stock, if so, what were the modifications?

I'm going to post links as I find them. Here are some of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N104RB_Red_Baron

http://www.i-f-s.nl/civil-f-104s/

N-104RB (c/n 2051-hybrid) – “N104RB” Red Baron

This was a famous Starfighter used for record flying in the 70s. It was build and flown by Darryl Greenamyer. He had flown Starfighters in the past and was convinced that this aircraft was capable to break any existing flight speed record. It was build around the phased out company production fuselage 2051 (used for production testing). The aft-section was obtained from a crashed Luke CCTW TF-104G (identity unknown), found on a scrapyard in Ontario. The Horizontal tail came from Davis Monthan AFB, Tucson scrapyard. The wings also belonged to a former Luke CCTW aircraft. This one-seat F-104G had also been written off after a crash (accident). The powerplant, on ban from the US-NAVY, was a US NAVY Phantom J79-GE10 engine which was tuned on a tested rate of 19,000 pound of thrust uninstalled.
On 2 October 1977 Darryl Greenamyer broke the record by flying average 1010 mph. Sadly this record became un-official due to a tracking camera malfunction.. This was very frustrating.
Then on the 24th that month Darryl did a new attempt and flew an FAI 3 km official record flight of 988.26 mph average. Sadly he did not break the 1000 mph this time but it was fast enough!!!
Next step was to break the world altitude record. On February 26th 1978 the aircraft crashed due to a malfunctioning gear while he made his fourth practice run/flight. Darryl ejected safely but this was the end of the Red Baron aircraft. Complete story is soon to be found inside a seperate article on this website.. stay tuned.
See also: http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aeros...peedRecord.htm

F-104A (c/n 1038 56-750) – “N62556″

F-104A (c/n 1038 56-750) – Project “N62556″This F-104A Starfighter was build in 1957 and this same year it made its first flight. On 25th of November 1957 it was delivered to the USAF. The first user was the ARDC (Aircraft Research Development Centre) at Edwards which used this single seat Starfighter until January 1962 for various flying tests and experiments. In January the aircraft was transferred to the USAF Test Pilot School (TPS) also located at Edwards AFB. This school used the aircraft for 1 and a half year teaching test-pilot students all about this demanding aircraft. The 6512TG (Test Group) at Edwards received the aircraft in June 1962 where it was redesignated official to JF-104A. The next month the 6512 OMS (Organizational Maintenance Squadron) at Edwards obtained this aircraft as instructional airframe. They owned the Starfighter until the AFSC (Aircraft Flight Test Centre) took it over from the school in September 1964. One month later the aircraft was redesignated back to F-104A and stayed in use with this unit until its retirement late 1967. The aircraft was put on store and moved to the MASDC in January 1968. It received storage code “FB015″. After the USAF found out that the aircraft was no longer a candidate for export it was dropped from their inventory in October 1971. To get rid of this “old piece of alluminium” the USAF sold it to DELCON which converts old aircraft into alluminium scrap for recycling. They received the aircraft on 25th of January 1974 but did not scrap it. They put it in storage until they were able to sell the aircraft to a company called Consolidated Aircraft. They brought the aircraft over to Tucson Arizona. Mid 70s it was bought by Darrell Greenamyer and Al Hanson for use in obtaining parts from it in support of their “Red Baron” F-104 project. Late 80s Starfighter enthousiast and IFS member Steve Alex bought the aircraft when it was already located at Mojave. Steve kept the Starfighter on this location and in 1991 he met Scott Vetter who was very interested in the aircraft. At the end Scott bought the 104 from Steve that year and brought the aircraft over to his home location at Canton Michigan. Scott still has 1 major goal……..becoming the first owner of a flying F-104A Starfighter in the world!! The photo was taken by Scott Vertter in October 2001 under restoration. More information about the project can be found at the website: http://www.mif-104.com/

TF-104G (c/n 5702) “N90500″ / “N104L” Lockheed TF-104G demonstrator

Early 60s Lockheed decided to take one of the aircraft out of their TF-104G production line to use it as a customer demonstration aircraft. The jet-fighter market was growing and Lockheed sold already a number of aircraft to NATO and wanted to gain interest of other nations as well. They also managed to get a lot of media attention, especially during the test-rides by Jacky Cochran in April till June 1963 and by Tony and his 18-year old daughter Toni Le Vier end May 1963. The aircraft was nicknamed “Free World Defender” and carried a special logo. As already mentioned the aircraft was used by Jacqueline Cochran. She managed to set three women’s world speed records in May-June 1964. On 11th May 1963, she averaged 1429.3 mph over a 15/25 km course and on the 1st June she flew at an average speed of 1303.18 mph over a 100-km closed-circuit course. Finally at 3 June she flew at an average speed of 1127.4 mph over a 500-km again closed-circuit course. In 1965 the aircraft was given back to the productionline and thanks to the Dutch Prince Bernard the aircraft went to the Dutch Air Force. So it joined the Dutch TF fleet as last one on 30 May 1965 receiving serial D-5702. This ended the civil career of this two-seater.
To complete the history of this aircraft, it was flown by the Dutch Air Force after being withdrawn from use in August 1980. On 25 August 1980 it was delivered to the Turkish Air Force, arriving in Turkey the next day. The 5702 was operated first by 4th Wing at Murted AB and later by 9th Wing at Balikesir AB. Then it was phased out in 1989 and went into storage at Eskisehir. It was likely scrapped late 1993 or early 1994. Photo shows the aircraft at Andrews AFB in September 1963, thanks to Stephen Miller.
5702_N104L

[JayReno]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

"Since this was a military plane, what could or did Darryl do to this plane that the military could/would not do for this speed record? Did Darryl modify the plane to make it faster than stock, if so, what were the modifications?"

Warbird Digest 53 (March/April 2014) has a very good article (The Fastest Warbird-Red Baron F-104) on the mods and what happened.

[IcePaq]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

The F104's landing speed means a pretty long slide in which only a slight amount of yaw from center will guarantee a roll.

[SkyvanDelta]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

"Since this was a military plane, what could or did Darryl do to this plane that the military could/would not do for this speed record? Did Darryl modify the plane to make it faster than stock, if so, what were the modifications?"

Warbird Digest 53 (March/April 2014) has a very good article (The Fastest Warbird-Red Baron F-104) on the mods and what happened.

Am I supposed to be able to read this online at Facebook? I see one page of it, but cannot enlarge the page to read the text. Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/warbirdpubl...type=3&theater

[Curt_B]

Re: Question about Darryl Greenamyer's ejection from his F104 Starfighter speed atte

A guess would be ejection over belly landings due to the ejection seat firing downwards on the early models in case things go wrong at the very end of the slide, like a fire or something. Belly landings would be the favored approach on prepared surfaces otherwise, even at the high landing speed. Retaining empty tip tanks would help keep things level and straight, but the deployed flaps would do the same with jettisoned tip tanks. Ejection would be favored if a prepared surface is unavailable due dirt building up ahead of a bulkhead causing departure, etc...