Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIrus?

[Guest]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

I have another question that fits in with this conversation. What is everyone's opinion on the NBC broadcast shows this year?

Afraid to admit it but I've not watched the shows. Been busy pulling together all the FAA docs for my upcoming shows...assuming they aren't cancelled.

Hope to catch up on You Tube.

I understand each episode is shorter? Same announcers?

[Race5]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

Afraid to admit it but I've not watched the shows. Been busy pulling together all the FAA docs for my upcoming shows...assuming they aren't cancelled.

Hope to catch up on You Tube.

I understand each episode is shorter? Same announcers?

Yeah 5 30 minute shows instead of 3 one hour shows. Same talking heads.

[Guest]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

Yeah 5 30 minute shows instead of 3 one hour shows. Same talking heads.

Saw a brief clip. Production value looks good. Good pub, regardless. Beggars can't be choosers. Thankful that NBC is on board.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

I have another question that fits in with this conversation. What is everyone's opinion on the NBC broadcast shows this year?

Boy oh Howdy is that a loaded question...

I think that technology wise, they did really very good!

I actually just rethinking of it would give 100% validation simply because they did it!

Kind of refreshing that we are discussing the quality of a national broadcast network of the Stihl Reno National Championship Air Races at all...

Still remembering those nights and early AM sessions in the press shack at Stead, using phone lines to connect to CompuServe, and then via that to the net with photos and stuff..

Dang, I think we might have lost site archives from that earliest era.. I hope not.

[GRNDP51]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

No Patty...at least she's not on the waiver application I just completed and will submit to FSDO next week

Assuming all goes well and we get this Wuhan crap behind us enough, we'll have a few entertaining military acts as well. And yes, it's a fiscal thing. Heavily sponsored civilian acts take precedence, for obvious reasons. I'd love to get Randy or Tobul (worked with Jim at Sun 'n Fun a in '18). Great guys and great acts. That said...Reno is, first and foremost, about racing. So when push comes to shove, RARA will error on the side of having more racing and less airshow.

Dang I was actually looking forward to Patty. I'm all for racing and all for military. I think without Patty on the lineup, Peitz, Tony, and Eric is a good mix.

I have another question that fits in with this conversation. What is everyone's opinion on the NBC broadcast shows this year?

I like watching it, cool footage you don't really get to see at the races.

I'm still not sure who it is appealing to though. It's advertised via RARA's social media, and those who follow them already know about the races. How many people are causally watching NBCS and come across the races and think hey this looks cool maybe I should go..?

It can't hurt and I enjoy it, but could that money be spent better somewhere else?

[CubersWrist]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

What impact do you think rescheduling PRS to the four days prior to Race Week will have on folks in general. No public is invited of course, but it's asking a lot of race teams, RARA personnel and many others (especially those who are still working folks) to commit to essentialy two full weeks in the high desert of northern Nevada.

Race #30 will not be participating in PRS. With all the systems to install and wingtips to replace there's too much to do in too short a time. It's doable, but you're just increasing the number of things that can go wrong. This goes back to 2018 when Andy flew the John Parker memorial flight Thursday night which got air in the ADI line and impacted our race Friday.

What's your take on having STOL as part of the racing action now?

They bring a much needed energy and social media presence that Reno/RARA sorely need. I welcome them with open arms. With the internet being what it is, I see lots of complaining about Reno is getting slower and RARA just needs to "up the purse to bring the big boys back yadda yadda yadda". Such complaints are ignorant. Especially considering how they filled the dead time between launch and race start.

If you could change two things about how your racing class, RARA or other major player goes about their business, what would it be. Be specific and offer alternatives.

I think everyone knows my idea by now. Allow turbo prop power plants in unlimited (keep all other rules the same). You can't say it will kill the class because the class is kinda already dead.

I think the biggest problem for the event is insurance costs. I don't know how you get that down other than start your own insurance company and undercut the existing players. That takes a lot of cash and a lot of risk....

The NBC show was terrific a couple of years ago because we didn't have the livestream. Now that we have both there is some redundancy. For the NBC shows I would like it to turn more into the Netflix F1 series. More emphasis on stories and interviews with a focus on the racing highlights. And I think that might be a pitch you could sell to NBC. Just point to Netflix and say "we want to do something like that".

Which class has reached closest to it's full potential RE: speed: The UNL of the early 2000's or the Sport class of today?

Sport has a long way to go. 1000cuin limit and we're only using 550. I think we might be topped out for current engines, but if/when a bigger engine comes along the class speeds will continue to climb.

Should Sport Gold abandon the Outer course and race on the Sport course?

Sport gold pulls 3-5 G as it is. I don't see how you could move Sport to the smaller course. On a similar note I think it would be worth moving UNL silver and bronze to the sport courses if they get too slow. Oh, and if there were a shorter course for slower planes, maybe that's an avenue for additional airframes to be eligible.

[GRNDP51]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

Thomas great idea about Reno being like Drive to Survive. I will admit that I’m into all sorts of motorsports, but Reno is really the only sport I follow in depth. BUT, DTS did ignite some motivation in me to learn all of the drivers and follow the sport more. Reno needs a show that can be accessible WHENEVER by random viewers. That’s how I found DTS on Netflix. I don’t follow any F1 accounts that would’ve notified me about the show. I’ve always said that I’ll only follow Reno because it’s the only motorsport that interests me, but DTS changed that and I am more interested in F1 than I was before watching.

I think Reno is a perfect sport to have a show like this. DTS made me want to pick my favorite drivers and follow their moves. Reno has that same appeal, but it’s even more special in that the aircraft all have their own zest, something F1 doesn’t have.

Also, Thomas if you can get any insider info on what Sport Gold planes are talking about showing up, I’ll start working on the 2020 Sport Gold Synopsis thread. Curious if anyone knows if Vicky is coming back in Lucky Too or if her hands are too full in hopefully Unlimited and back in Jet.

[Guest]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

Race #30 will not be participating in PRS. With all the systems to install and wingtips to replace there's too much to do in too short a time. It's doable, but you're just increasing the number of things that can go wrong. This goes back to 2018 when Andy flew the John Parker memorial flight Thursday night which got air in the ADI line and impacted our race Friday.


They bring a much needed energy and social media presence that Reno/RARA sorely need. I welcome them with open arms. With the internet being what it is, I see lots of complaining about Reno is getting slower and RARA just needs to "up the purse to bring the big boys back yadda yadda yadda". Such complaints are ignorant. Especially considering how they filled the dead time between launch and race start.


I think everyone knows my idea by now. Allow turbo prop power plants in unlimited (keep all other rules the same). You can't say it will kill the class because the class is kinda already dead.

I think the biggest problem for the event is insurance costs. I don't know how you get that down other than start your own insurance company and undercut the existing players. That takes a lot of cash and a lot of risk....

The NBC show was terrific a couple of years ago because we didn't have the livestream. Now that we have both there is some redundancy. For the NBC shows I would like it to turn more into the Netflix F1 series. More emphasis on stories and interviews with a focus on the racing highlights. And I think that might be a pitch you could sell to NBC. Just point to Netflix and say "we want to do something like that".


Sport has a long way to go. 1000cuin limit and we're only using 550. I think we might be topped out for current engines, but if/when a bigger engine comes along the class speeds will continue to climb.


Sport gold pulls 3-5 G as it is. I don't see how you could move Sport to the smaller course. On a similar note I think it would be worth moving UNL silver and bronze to the sport courses if they get too slow. Oh, and if there were a shorter course for slower planes, maybe that's an avenue for additional airframes to be eligible.

Good stuff, Thomas!

Sorry to hear your won't be at PRS but you'll be arriving just a few days later. Best of luck with the mods!

I think STOL is a very welcome addition on several levels. Social Media, new blood, new spirit, some "characters" to add to the mix, etc. They are good to work with and I enjoy their "cowboy" attitude.

Sure most folks long for the days of the good old boys in the UNL Gold boys challenging the 500mph lap times. Not sure we'll see those days again...hope so...but in the meantime, we are where we are and I'm working along with lots of you to keep thing going and introduce new ideas and concepts. Reno 2025 (God willing) may look a bit different is what I'm gathering from those here and elsewhere.

I appreciate everyone’s willingness to chime in. Hopefully no one here minds if I gently nudge the powers that be with thoughts and ideas we kick around here. No wish to take credit for anything said here by anyone. If folks feel "What happens on AAFO, stays on AAFO", please let me know. Most of us have access to some decisions makers throughout the enterprise and hopefully we feel free enough to share with them at some level.

No question, insurance is a huge albatross around RARA's neck. It went up exponentially after 2011. It was on a downward trend for a bit (not back to normal, bur trending), but this year it's gone up again. It's a large driver in the decision-making process.

I recently joined ($5/month) www.bigjet.tv (forgive me Wayne, if that's Verboten...feel free to delete it). It's a live-stream based out of UK. This guy travels the world (or...um...used to anyway), live-streaming on FB and You Tube from major airports. It's kinda like Planespotters but live with commentary. Live chat among members during the streaming adds to fun. It's cheap entertainment for a plane geek. It's commercial aviation centric but they do branch out. Thinking about asking RARA if they'd be interested in having him at Reno. Cost is $0.00 to RARA as he covers all his costs. In Feb. they showed FB and YouTube Reach of 34.3M, Views of 11.3M, and website page views of 4.9M. Issue may be broadcast rights with NBCSN. Worth investigating.

Had no idea Sport had that much runway ahead them RE: engine size. Funny you mentioned the Bronze UNL moving to Sport course. Ran that concept past a few folks in a half-serious manner...it wasn't shot down but selling it to the class may be problematic.

Thomas, are you saying perhaps a "new" shorter course for additional airframes? Or are you saying moving existing classes to a slower course based on their speed would permit additional airframes? Sorry...didn't quite copy where you were headed there.

[Race5]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

I hadn't thought of unlimited bronze on the sport course, but that's a good idea. I'd like to see Sport Medallion move to the F1 / Biplane course too.

On the subject of Sport Class, one thing I hear from casual fans a lot is how so many of the airplanes look the same going by in front of the crowd. No matter how much thought is put into the paint schemes on the sides and top, they generally look the same on the bottom. White on the plastic air frames and silver or polished on the RVs. It can be a bit hard to follow because of that. Maybe encourage the guys to put some identifiable markings on the bottom of the fuse / wings too.

[Guest]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

I hadn't thought of unlimited bronze on the sport course, but that's a good idea. I'd like to see Sport Medallion move to the F1 / Biplane course too.

On the subject of Sport Class, one thing I hear from casual fans a lot is how so many of the airplanes look the same going by in front of the crowd. No matter how much thought is put into the paint schemes on the sides and top, they generally look the same on the bottom. White on the plastic air frames and silver or polished on the RVs. It can be a bit hard to follow because of that. Maybe encourage the guys to put some identifiable markings on the bottom of the fuse / wings too.

As you know, the Medallions are now on the Middle (T-6) course. On the subject of Sport Medallion on Bip/F1, we discussed that in Race Control and rejected the idea. The reason is: concern of the possibility of a belly-to-belly incident as the fastest Medallion aircraft is racing from Inner 3 to Inner 4 (having already transistioned to the Inner course after passing Home) while the slowest aircraft was still in the VoS, near Outer 7, or Outer 8 on the opening lap. Don't recall if anyone ran the numbers but it was discussed and rejected as being too close for comfort.

One possible alternative would be to start Medallion like the T-6's, down a chute on a RWY 08 heading and then transition to Inner Course. It would shorten the time from launch to first lap and obviously shorten the time needed to complete all laps. Of course, that means it would also shorten the time allocated to STOL for their racing as we count on the 9-12 minutes requried for the rejoin around Pevine and a Chute start in UNL, Jet, and Sport to run STOL.

Good idea about identifying Sport class as they pass Home. Maybe some "Aircraft Recognition" classes are in order!

[Race5]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

As you know, the Medallions are now on the Middle (T-6) course. On the subject of Sport Medallion on Bip/F1, we discussed that in Race Control and rejected the idea. The reason is: concern of the possibility of a belly-to-belly incident as the fastest Medallion aircraft is racing from Inner 3 to Inner 4 (having already transistioned to the Inner course after passing Home) while the slowest aircraft was still in the VoS, near Outer 7, or Outer 8 on the opening lap. Don't recall if anyone ran the numbers but it was discussed and rejected as being too close for comfort.

One possible alternative would be to start Medallion like the T-6's, down a chute on a RWY 08 heading and then transition to Inner Course. It would shorten the time from launch to first lap and obviously shorten the time needed to complete all laps. Of course, that means it would also shorten the time allocated to STOL for their racing as we count on the 9-12 minutes requried for the rejoin around Pevine and a Chute start in UNL, Jet, and Sport to run STOL.

Good idea about identifying Sport class as they pass Home. Maybe some "Aircraft Recognition" classes are in order!

Good point on the start. I initially thought of the T6 start but had dismissed it due to the already overloaded PRS curriculum for the class and the need to teach yet another completely new procedure. My thought was to use a modified chute start that would bring them in from a bit further East on a 45 degree approach to inner 3.

[Guest]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

Good point on the start. I initially thought of the T6 start but had dismissed it due to the already overloaded PRS curriculum for the class and the need to teach yet another completely new procedure. My thought was to use a modified chute start that would bring them in from a bit further East on a 45 degree approach to inner 3.

Interesting idea, Race. Haven't looked at it but one factor I'd want to resolve is the extent to which such a chute may conflict with RNO ILS/Class E extension of their Class C airspace.

I've never been a big fan of the Scatter Pylon start in the Bip/F1 classes. Sure you know back in the day we'd launch of RWY26 if winds were unfavorable, scatter the class around a "Pylon" located south of the threshold of RWY 08, back around toward Home Pylon for the "start." That was a contributing factor in the tradedy of 2007. Now we launch off RWY 32 and scatter around "Pylon" (i.e. old telephone company bucket truck or Pylon Judge vehicles with lights on) just west of the active and the racers enter the course along the backstretch. I'd have some concerns about bring in a class directly toward a pylon that requires them to immediately enter a turn.

In any event, it's likely something for 2021 as to your point, bit late in the day to throw it out there now.

Good discussion...appreciate your time and thoughts!

[Race5]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

Interesting idea, Race. Haven't looked at it but one factor I'd want to resolve is the extent to which such a chute may conflict with RNO ILS/Class E extension of their Class C airspace.

I've never been a big fan of the Scatter Pylon start in the Bip/F1 classes. Sure you know back in the day we'd launch of RWY26 if winds were unfavorable, scatter the class around a "Pylon" located south of the threshold of RWY 08, back around toward Home Pylon for the "start." That was a contributing factor in the tradedy of 2007. Now we launch off RWY 32 and scatter around "Pylon" (i.e. old telephone company bucket truck or Pylon Judge vehicles with lights on) just west of the active and the racers enter the course along the backstretch. I'd have some concerns about bring in a class directly toward a pylon that requires them to immediately enter a turn.

In any event, it's likely something for 2021 as to your point, bit late in the day to throw it out there now.

Good discussion...appreciate your time and thoughts!

The T-6 start already require an almost immediate turn.

I was beyond glad to see the scatter pylon start go away. I'm surprised it took as long as it did for something bad to happen. The 32 start is a HUGE improvement. Although I hate the logistics of getting the classes down there for the start and the recovery afterward. Luckily we haven't had to do it very many times.

[Guest]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

The T-6 start already require an almost immediate turn.

I was beyond glad to see the scatter pylon start go away. I'm surprised it took as long as it did for something bad to happen. The 32 start is a HUGE improvement. Although I hate the logistics of getting the classes down there for the start and the recovery afterward. Luckily we haven't had to do it very many times.

Ditto! And yes, the 32 start is a HUGE improvement, no question. Until the next best pratice comes along it will do.

While the T-6 start does involve a turn at least from the release point the a/c dive onto the course parallel with the racing line and have a few thousand feet to negotiate the turn at Inner/Middle 1. Same thing in the other Chute. Release point is quite far from East Start pylon and Outer 4 is directly ahead.

Just seem that entering the Inner Course on a 45 directly toward Inner 3 would not be too dissimilar from the scatter pylon concept. Good thoughts and interesting to kick it around.

[CubersWrist]

Re: Moving Forward: What can we do wo help ensure the Reno Air Races Sirvive the VIru

Good stuff, Thomas!
I appreciate everyoneÂ’s willingness to chime in. Hopefully no one here minds if I gently nudge the powers that be with thoughts and ideas we kick around here. No wish to take credit for anything said here by anyone. If folks feel "What happens on AAFO, stays on AAFO", please let me know. Most of us have access to some decisions makers throughout the enterprise and hopefully we feel free enough to share with them at some level.

Please do. If this never leaves the site, then we have become truly irrelevant.

Funny you mentioned the Bronze UNL moving to Sport course. Ran that concept past a few folks in a half-serious manner...it wasn't shot down but selling it to the class may be problematic. Thomas, are you saying perhaps a "new" shorter course for additional airframes? Or are you saying moving existing classes to a slower course based on their speed would permit additional airframes? Sorry...didn't quite copy where you were headed there.

I'm saying take the existing speed benchmarks that Sport uses and apply them to other classes. UNL used to have a minimum speed of 300mph. Sport has a minimum of 200mph with the shorter courses. If UNL has a new minimum of 250mph(to avoid confusion with the T6 class), that could let in the T-28s, John Shell's Super T-6 (I know it crashed), Tucanos, T-6 II, etc. And I know we all want to grow the UNL class upwards, but I think you gotta open up the bottom end, and then hope some of the slower guys "get the bug" and start working their way up.

Now if you did this, the different courses and the transitions on lap two would be a new thing the class would need to cover at PRS.....

On the subject of Sport Class, one thing I hear from casual fans a lot is how so many of the airplanes look the same going by in front of the crowd. No matter how much thought is put into the paint schemes on the sides and top, they generally look the same on the bottom.

I was in touch with Sean Vanhatten about this exact issue with his Glassair...He was looking at red, white, black colors and so we looked at pictures to see how many planes had red, white, and black bellies....#30, #39, #15, #611, #99. Now some of those get split up into different heats, but then you get onto the backside of the course it's almost impossible without binoculars.
So there are a couple people aware of this. #24 did a wonderful thing by re-profiling the wing and then painting them neon green. More speed and better recognition.
I think this could be approached as getting a class sponsor to print larger numbers, or some kind of "nose art" or something. But also I think each individual team could be encouraged to do this on their own because any "nose art" could be turned into stickers to sell in the pits etc etc.