Butterfly tail.

[V1670]

Inquiring to people MUCH more knowledgeable than me; what's the advantage/disadvantage of butterfly tails?

Reason for asking: did some reading on early Convair designs and they mentioned a early design concept of the XF-92 delta wing aircraft that featured a butterfly tail. When I was a kid, my dad worked for an aircraft/powerplant subcontractor and he brought home a weekly paper (circa 1954-55), one of which had a artist concept of the upcoming B-58 Hustler. The thing made such an impression on me as it looked so radical (and...for the time...it was): looked like your regular B-58, the only difference being the engines were podded together (as in B-47, B-52) and the thing had a butterfly tail. Also, Supermarine was producing a butterfly tail fighter (i think Model 508? not sure). Can't remember any other aircraft, except the ubiquitous V35 Bonanza.

So.....what's the opinions/data?

[knot4u]

Re: Butterfly tail.

Inquiring to people MUCH more knowledgeable than me; what's the advantage/disadvantage of butterfly tails?

Reason for asking: did some reading on early Convair designs and they mentioned a early design concept of the XF-92 delta wing aircraft that featured a butterfly tail. When I was a kid, my dad worked for an aircraft/powerplant subcontractor and he brought home a weekly paper (circa 1954-55), one of which had a artist concept of the upcoming B-58 Hustler. The thing made such an impression on me as it looked so radical (and...for the time...it was): looked like your regular B-58, the only difference being the engines were podded together (as in B-47, B-52) and the thing had a butterfly tail. Also, Supermarine was producing a butterfly tail fighter (i think Model 508? not sure). Can't remember any other aircraft, except the ubiquitous V35 Bonanza.

So.....what's the opinions/data?

I never had a chance to meet Carl Friend, but from what I was told he was one of the engineers responsible for the three blade prop on the Bearcat. I was also told he'd engineered a v-tail for the airplane but obviously that never came to fruition, even if Lyle had wanted to do it I have no idea where the money would have come from. I think he worked for Lockheed as an aerodynamicist but my memory isn't what it used to be. I can see how less frontal area would equal less drag but if it didn't want to fly very well without huge control inputs it seems as if it might not have been much of an improvement, but I'm not an aero engineer and everyone I spoke to held Carl in very high regard so I really don't think my opinion should be considered.

[knot4u]

Re: Butterfly tail.

Inquiring to people MUCH more knowledgeable than me; what's the advantage/disadvantage of butterfly tails?

Reason for asking: did some reading on early Convair designs and they mentioned a early design concept of the XF-92 delta wing aircraft that featured a butterfly tail. When I was a kid, my dad worked for an aircraft/powerplant subcontractor and he brought home a weekly paper (circa 1954-55), one of which had a artist concept of the upcoming B-58 Hustler. The thing made such an impression on me as it looked so radical (and...for the time...it was): looked like your regular B-58, the only difference being the engines were podded together (as in B-47, B-52) and the thing had a butterfly tail. Also, Supermarine was producing a butterfly tail fighter (i think Model 508? not sure). Can't remember any other aircraft, except the ubiquitous V35 Bonanza.

So.....what's the opinions/data?

I never had a chance to meet Carl Friend, but from what I was told he was one of the engineers responsible for the three blade prop on the Bearcat. I was also told he'd engineered a v-tail for the airplane but obviously that never came to fruition, even if Lyle had wanted to do it I have no idea where the money would have come from. I think he worked for Lockheed as an aerodynamicist but my memory isn't what it used to be. I can see how less frontal area would equal less drag but if it didn't want to fly very well without huge control inputs it seems as if it might not have been an improvement, but I'm not an aero engineer and everyone I spoken to held Carl in very high regard so I really don't think my opinion should be considered.

[planecrazy2]

Re: Butterfly tail.

Hmmm.

Like all design work, a v-tail is a compromise. Yes there is less frontal area, less induced inter-sectional drag, which should all lead to a higher speeds. However, the rudder-elevator coupling issue will create a drag factor a full scale racing airframe may not tolerate well. IDK.

I had a few R/C gliders with v-tails and control inputs were more extreme to achieve semi-comparable performance. I know they suck if you wish to do aerobatics.

We also raced Q-500 class R/C planes with v-tails and the performance was very good for turning left handed laps.

I think the v-tail design is solid, but it would take a great leap of faith ($$$,$$$.$$) to engineer one for an existing racing airframe. We may see a v-tail on a new F1 or Sport class racer in the future.

[Leo]

Re: Butterfly tail.

The P-63 flew with a V-tail in testing, so did the XF-92 but neither was adopted. There was a formula racer "Deerfly" that sported one. The pilot said it liked to snake in turns and he eventually was killed in it.

[Plane Nuts]

Re: Butterfly tail.

My Dad told me v-tail Bonanza's "hunted". Me not being a pilot would assume he meant a lot of rudder pedal input to maintain directional stability. He is long gone so I can't ask him to elaborate.

[Leo]

Re: Butterfly tail.

I have never flown one. My son has some time in one. He says it is just a touch squirrelly compared to a straight tail Debonair.
He's a mechanic on them (everything actually, his specialty is L-39's, L-29's and other eastern bloc jets).

[Plane Nuts]

Re: Butterfly tail.

Sounds like the same thing, just stated differently.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Butterfly tail.

My closest bud, Allen Sprague, has a V tail, for sale, actually...

Big Al is his member name..

He's "the guy" who brought the survivor non restored banana to RENO in the heritage over at the other end of the field..

We just completed the annual on the bird in fact...

I'll try to get him to chime in since he just got current in his airplane after the annual!

[CubersWrist]

Re: Butterfly tail.

There were two V tail designs in the electric racer contest last year. They were only done in a sim but interesting to see how the electrics could make pushers feasible without having to worry about things like driveshafts.

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/electrifying-ideas-winners-named-in-raes-electric-air-race-design-contest/

[Bigfoot]

Re: Butterfly tail.

Having begun my Unlimited racing crew experience with Rare Bear and at that time living less than a mile from Lyle's Reno condo we had spent a fair amount of time having lunch and occasionally, adult beverages. Carl Friend was a genius engineer who was always thinking of innovation. Some have said his ideas were better conceptual than practical. The three bladed prop was an excellent conceptual idea but not enough testing was able to be performed to really know for certain if it was superior to the four bladed prop. The three bladed prop did seem to produce more vibration and may have contributed to more twisting of the air frame. But it sure did sound bitchin"!

The V-tail concept had one drawback with regards to the Rare Bear. The preliminary sketches showed the aft fuselage would have to lengthened for stability (much like a Bonanza). That would be impractical for the Bear which at that time was already prone to aft CG issues. Also, there was some concern about the V-tail withstanding the high G-loads of racing at Reno. The biggest obstacle was that it would have been ungodly expensive with uncertain benefits.

BigFoot