2020 Reno Air Races

[Leo]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

That's only a fraction of the tax break he was given to build here (not that I am complaining, lots of jobs and new housing) would be sweet if his interests focused this way.

[CubersWrist]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

Focusing on how much money someone (like Elon Musk) has or how much his tax returns are is not a productive way to think of this problem. If you want to talk about marketing races to Tesla that's a different story, but that probably require everyone to be excited about electric aircraft....

Besides you don't want the races to be hanging on the whims of a single guy. That's what the unlimiteds have been doing and it's not treating the class or the races well.

Looking at the Ford/Ferrari rivalry with the 24 of Le Mans and it's clear it started as a marketing push that then turned into a personal vendetta. But then Ford quit coming to the races after they had won and after it was decided the marketing value wasn't worth the investment. And yet Lemans is still be held all these years later. The races are built on sponsors and marketing and to do that successfully someone needs to be selling something of value (ie Ford and Ferrari are selling cars and Le Man is selling the event).

But the sobering thing is that this donation drive is none of those things.

[Leo]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

I was thinking Tesla, not Musk personally, although his interest would be a driver for them to use it as a marketing tool. There are so many companies out there that spend millions on advertising that the races would be a small expenditure in the big picture. The more the merrier, as long as the announcer does not need to say "And your Tesla, Red Bull, Chevy, Coca-Cola, Penzoil, VP Racing fuels unlimited are on the course".

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

However it happens, I'm afraid without a HUGE influx of interest (read that, CASH) by some large bux faction, the races as we know them are over..

When we started all of this, how much did the airplanes the early racers used coxt?

What are those same planes worth today... even as non flying parts bins for the rest of the warbird world?

Face it, the guys who race at RENO do NOT do it for money and they never have. They do it because they can... and that word, CAN is the all important one here...

Because they can...

Make that airplane they want to race in raise in value to over a million and now you're in trouble.

INSURANCE my ex wife made a living deciding if you and I got our $$ back when we filed a claim... She was in risk management at one point in her career... She could never understand how RENO managed to insure that event... I'm pretty sure today, especially after our saddest event, most insurance companies would charge an arm, and TWO legs to insure that event!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Anyone have Elon's cell number???

[Guest]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

However it happens, I'm afraid without a HUGE influx of interest (read that, CASH) by some large bux faction, the races as we know them are over..

When we started all of this, how much did the airplanes the early racers used coxt?

What are those same planes worth today... even as non flying parts bins for the rest of the warbird world?

Face it, the guys who race at RENO do NOT do it for money and they never have. They do it because they can... and that word, CAN is the all important one here...

Because they can...

Make that airplane they want to race in raise in value to over a million and now you're in trouble.

INSURANCE my ex wife made a living deciding if you and I got our $$ back when we filed a claim... She was in risk management at one point in her career... She could never understand how RENO managed to insure that event... I'm pretty sure today, especially after our saddest event, most insurance companies would charge an arm, and TWO legs to insure that event!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Anyone have Elon's cell number???

I remain optimistic...however...it seems fairly clear this event cannot and will not enjoy a successful future unless and until it embraces the central theme of Mr. Charles Darwin's Theory of Biological Evolution Through Natural Selection. "It is not the strongest of species that survives, nor is it the most intelligent of species that survives. It is the species that best adapts to change that survives."

Any realistic assessment of the situation would drive a reasonable person to determine change is necessary to ensure the survival of this event. That may be a tough sell to those who remember fondly the "good ol' days"...but that's the point. Those were the "ol'" days.

How do you see Reno changing to ensure it survives in some semblence of the unique event that has been built over the past half-century plus?

Would you continue to attend if _______________ ?

Go ahead...fill in the blank.

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

Charles Darwins Theory is correct because when everything on earth is gone there will still be cockroaches? They adapt.

[knot4u]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

Charles Darwins Theory is correct because when everything on earth is gone there will still be cockroaches? They adapt.

We're here, we've adapted. There are many other species that can easily kill us one on one, sharks, bears, big cats, wolves, but when we work together we dominate. And when we have a chance for recreation we're genetically predisposed to compete, what better competition than speed? There has been and always will be humans that are willing to risk everything to win. Do we own this planet? I think not, but for now we dominate it in spite of the species that would like to eat us for lunch. Kids will always have foot races to see who's the fastest without anyone telling them how a race works, it's instinct.

[knot4u]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

Charles Darwins Theory is correct because when everything on earth is gone there will still be cockroaches? They adapt.

We're here, we've adapted. There are many other species that can easily kill us one on one, sharks, bears, big cats, wolves, but when we work together we dominate. And when we have a chance for recreation we're genetically predisposed to compete, what better competition than speed? There has been and always will be humans that are willing risk everything to win. Do we own this planet? I think not, but for now we dominate it in spite of the species that would like to eat us for lunch. Kids will always have foot races to see who's the fastest without anyone telling them how a race works, it's instinct.

[Guest]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

We're here, we've adapted. There are many other species that can easily kill us one on one, sharks, bears, big cats, wolves, but when we work together we dominate. And when we have a chance for recreation we're genetically predisposed to compete, what better competition than speed? There has been and always will be humans that are willing risk everything to win. Do we own this planet? I think not, but for now we dominate it in spite of the species that would like to eat us for lunch. Kids will always have foot races to see who's the fastest without anyone telling them how a race works, it's instinct.

I certainly understand the instinctual aspect of human nature. Raced ourboards when I was a kid (until I flipped one and my parents put me on the beach). Hell, my neighborhood buddies got together and we'd build hydro's out of plywood (complete with sponsons, tails, cockpits and cowlings), paint them in all the colors of the real ones, and races them by towing them behind our Schwinns. We had a Pit (admission was the proper color bread loaf plastic tag). I got my backside tanned by my dad because I carved up a pristine sheet of 3/4" cabinet-grade mahogony plywood he had saved to make my mom a new sideboard for her kitchen. It was worth it though...I kicked everybody's butt that year!!!

My point here is Reno is obviously stuggling in its current form. Many factors (some or most out of RARA's control) are conspiring against their success.

Serious questions to anyone willing to speak out:

1. Do you believe the current structure of Race Week should remain as is, even if it means the end of the event? An all or nothing approach?

2. Does the balance between racing and performers during the week present (i) too much racing, (ii) too many performers, (iii) just right balance (currently approx. 76% racing and 24% performer)?

3. How much change is too much change for you? What would cause you to decide not to attend?

4. If you were running the show, what changes would you make? And please don't say add more $$$ (sponsors, donations, etc.)...that's way to obvious. I'm talking about structural changes to the event that not only don't costs money but may actually save money or even inject revenue.


I could be wrong but the flavor and tenor on this forum nowadays leads one to believe many, if not most, folks feel that it may be time to cease pummling the deceased equine beast and call it a day.

Hopefully you prove me wrong...

[Leo]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

I thought the mix was pretty good the last couple of years, even with last years no-shows. I know the local, casual fans always ask me why there is not more military demo's and ground displays. The kids love em. I always liked the fact that it was one place where we could see some stuff not usually common, SR-71, U-2, C-5, etc.
The one thing I miss that I used to like way back were the warbird aero displays. There always seemed to be one or two whether it was a corsair, mustang or my favorite the smokewinder show. I assume though, that these cost RARA even more money.
I'll go no matter what, it's a habit and an addiction. Hell, I drug myself out there this year to look at the 3 Sanders Sea Fury's sitting on the ramp!

Hey Boss, another thing in common. I had an 8' 3-point hydro that my dad and I built back in the day. Raised hell on the Napa River. I got about 30-35 mph out of a 7.5 hp Mercury OB. Flipped it several times being an idiot, never hurt myself or the equipment. Don't think I could steel myself up to do any of that again! I was a semi-pro water skier in those days and fearless. Last time I tried to ski was over 10 years ago and when I went down (something I used to do 50 times in a day) I had to get help into the boat and was sore for several days! Age sucks.

[Guest]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

I thought the mix was pretty good the last couple of years, even with last years no-shows. I know the local, casual fans always ask me why there is not more military demo's and ground displays. The kids love em. I always liked the fact that it was one place where we could see some stuff not usually common, SR-71, U-2, C-5, etc.
The one thing I miss that I used to like way back were the warbird aero displays. There always seemed to be one or two whether it was a corsair, mustang or my favorite the smokewinder show. I assume though, that these cost RARA even more money.
I'll go no matter what, it's a habit and an addiction. Hell, I drug myself out there this year to look at the 3 Sanders Sea Fury's sitting on the ramp!

Hey Boss, another thing in common. I had an 8' 3-point hydro that my dad and I built back in the day. Raised hell on the Napa River. I got about 30-35 mph out of a 7.5 hp Mercury OB. Flipped it several times being an idiot, never hurt myself or the equipment. Don't think I could steel myself up to do any of that again! I was a semi-pro water skier in those days and fearless. Last time I tried to ski was over 10 years ago and when I went down (something I used to do 50 times in a day) I had to get help into the boat and was sore for several days! Age sucks.

Thanks, Leo. Appreciate the feedback, sir. Reno has such a unique place in the industry. Which is both a blessing and a curse. As I mentioned, racing takes up over 75% of all waivered airspace time, Thursday thru Sunday. Only so many hours in the day so if we're to draw a better balance, it means fewer heats and races. You OK with that? Others? Know it may come across as self-serving but I'm in the camp that says a more equitable balance may be necessary to keep this thing afloat.

Speaking of afloat... ;-)

How I spent my summers once I was old enough to operate a Schwin...and before I graduated to the 3-point boats (if only briefly!):

https://archive.seattletimes.com/arc...woodenhydro280

Several of the UNL Hydro teams had their shops near my home in Renton, WA. If I had a dollar for every hour I spent hanging out at those shops...sigh.

[Leo]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

I like more racing than show, but I realize I am a minority in the big picture. I am for whatever puts butts in the seats.

That looks a lot safer than the monster I drove around. Funny but I was running that boat and learning to fly sailplanes 2 years before I could legally drive!
My stepdad was never shy about doing things that nowadays would be considered dangerous. Of course, he organized and I actually did the things...I have the scars to prove it.

[CubersWrist]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

This year has even hit NASCAR and F1 hard to the point where they are taking some major cost cutting measures for this year and the next two years. And they have cashflows Reno teams could only dream of. These are well established brands built around selling racing in addition cars, and whatever the sponsors are selling. This is all a lot easier than selling airplanes.
Now it's important to recognize that Reno isn't like any professional racing organization. Reno is like an amateur track day. You the driver pay to show up with your sportscar, have fun doing stuff on the track that is normally illegal, and then you leave. From that perspective one can say Reno exists more for the racers than for the fans.

And I think this is a big deal because I think Reno is primarily marketed like a NASCAR type event, that is largely put on for the fans, with teams serving as hired entertainers. This is why the prize money is always such an issue because people think they are not being fairly compensated. But I think the most important thing we have to realize going forward is that Reno is not NASCAR, because that directly impacts the business model.

So with that said, here are my ramblings:
1. I think people that might say all or nothing are the people that have been around long enough to have "good old days". I haven't been around long enough, and so all or nothing is not an option.

2. I think the main thing is how to bring insurance costs down. I don't think more performers and less racing does anything to help the cost. Maybe if the early part of the week was "closed to the public," (with adequate loop holes for paying members to get around this) it would lower insurance?

3. This one is hard but I guess as a hypothetical line in the sand, if my team only had 1 race for the event I would have to throw up my hands and say "what's the point".

4. I'm going to break the rules here and more think out loud rather than commit to "what I would do"
I think as a cost measure I would be obligated at looking to reduce purses(maybe only top 3), while supporting classes in finding their own sponsors for prize money.
Probably stop the NBC deal while maintaining the live stream. And make the livestream pay per view.
I would be pushing to get the electrics flying as quickly as safely possible. RARA doesn't have the money to sponsor a team or the organization, but I'd see what it would cost to announce being an Air Race E location just to jump on the bandwagon.
I would try to coordinate with the military when it comes to unveilings or first-time demonstrations when it comes to jets. T-7A is in the pipeline. B-21 is in the pipeline. 6th gen fighter prototype is apparently flying. See what it takes to get some kind of exclusive reveal or fly by for those jets.
Find some legal means (that again doesn't hurt insurance cost) of selling access to the interior of the course. I'm trying to think way outside the box, but in 2015 they had a camera chopper hovering at the center of the course, that's kind of nice because if a mayday happens the chopper can respond and move out of the way.

[Guest]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

Thomas,

As always, a well-reasoned response. Thank you.

You're absolutely correct RE: the NASCAR analogy. Always cringed when I heard someone refer to Reno as "NASCAR in the Sky." Misleading and wrong, on many levels. For many years, Reno existed mainly for and because of the racers. That mentality still exists today. Whether or not that is a right-minded approach in this day and age is an arguable point.

1. Agreed. I'd like to believe even most of the "old guard" folks would prefer something rounding the pylons in September vs. the alternate.

2. While insurance costs are not the only financial burden that keeps Reno from greater financial success, it is, without a doubt, the major burden. Once you move from "airshow" to "air racing", the underwriters sharpen their pencils and start adding "Zeros." Whether or not Reno holds 20 races or 63 races (as we did in 2019), it matters little. We're racing airplanes. Frankly, I can't think of another motorsport (or perhaps ANY sport) that holds the level of inherent risk of injury or death to participant and/or spectator alike that Reno holds. That comes at a costs...a very high cost. And I don't see much relief in that area in the near future. On a very much smaller scale for example, my Air Boss insurance to run 10-15 airshows a year (NOT including Reno) has gone up 50% in the last four years. Do the math for Reno...

3. There are some options here in my opinion. Most, however, are likely not agreeable to the racing side of the house. I'll not go there, here.

4. Some solid ideas here, Thomas. Nice thinking. Rest assured I continue to push to add interesting acts, Fly-bys, etc. That said, there's only so many minutes in the waivered day. And as been the history of Reno, if we're up against it on time, the first thing to get the axe is a performer, not a heat or race. I wasn't privy to the "High-G Ridge" experiment thinking in past years but it didn't last long for whatever reason. Spectators in the interior of the course has been kicked around. Shuttling them in and out would not be that diffucult. Satisfying the FAA RE: security and accountability would be a challenge, but I think doable, with restrictions.

Bottom line: Major expenditures with BAU are not going anywhere...but up. If Reno is to survive, very hard choices must be made and the support of all the classes, concessionaires, fans, contractors, etc. will be required.

Thanks again, Thomas. Good stuff...

[krts]

Re: 2020 Reno Air Races

It may be time for RARA to "self preserve" by dumping the US Internal Revenue Code 501(c) (3) status and start keeping the money they make in their own pocket instead of giving it away to charities and foundations.It may be better to pay the taxes on the money they make on the event. Only RARA knows because they won't open up the books for anyone to see where the money is going and to compare,taxes v code 501. On another note,is a donation to RARA by the fans tax deductable?