What If....2021

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: What If....2021

PLEASE do not get me wrong! I am NOT advocating purse changes.... already difficult enough for racers without really deep pockets to make RENO happen...

[planecrazy2]

Re: What If....2021

spent 10yrs. as an NCAA basketball official

Owen, do you ever work Aztec Men’s home games? If so, in the future hit me up. I work all the home games flying the blimp. It would be a pleasure to meet you.

Regarding this fantastic thread, wouldn’t this be sooooooo much more productive if we had real numbers? If only RARA would open their books. A bit of transparency would make donating to RARA more palatable too….meanwhile in speculation land,

Couple of thoughts,

Not running races and instead parading the classes to save money on insurance costs.

I fear the improbability of putting the correct marketing spin on this to avoid backlash limits this option. The event is branded as “The National Air Races”. No races means no interest for over 50% of the gate?
My own personal bias is toward the racing aspect of the NCAR being 95% of the reason I attend or care to follow the event at all. This bias is far too overwhelming to overcome. There is nothing much I would rather experience than a good air race, served-up Reno style. The smell of competition is visceral as the air is literally shook apart. I think that the event would be just an empty shell without actual racing.

Regarding the “gotta present ‘em a World Class Airshow” theory.

I dunno. To me the fluff was always fluff with one exception. Watching Lefty or Hoover or even the T-33 doing aerobatics between races was such a gift. I think most of us would be happy watching between race flybys of the rare and exotic aircraft found in the Heritage collection. Toss in a loud Military demo periodically?
Clearly, many seats are filled by those wanting to see the Blues or T-Birds but there were some leaner years when the Blues and Birds could not be scheduled, was the gate down those years?

Requiring teams to qualify for limited slots.

Double edged sword. There are ramifications to this policy. One being the ultimate shrinking of the interested-in-racing AC owners. If you are interested in air racing your pet, ya gotta enter the arena at a much higher level of capability if there were just 16 slots, than if there were 32 slots. Sure you can have 32 wanabees vie for 16 slots for a short run, but those mid-pack and behind folks are going to run out of enthusiasm real quick.

That said, I agree 100% the show must constrict in some way to survive.

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

Owen, do you ever work Aztec Men’s home games? If so, in the future hit me up. I work all the home games flying the blimp. It would be a pleasure to meet you.

Regarding this fantastic thread, wouldn’t this be sooooooo much more productive if we had real numbers? If only RARA would open their books. A bit of transparency would make donating to RARA more palatable too….meanwhile in speculation land,

Couple of thoughts,

Not running races and instead parading the classes to save money on insurance costs.

I fear the improbability of putting the correct marketing spin on this to avoid backlash limits this option. The event is branded as “The National Air Races”. No races means no interest for over 50% of the gate?
My own personal bias is toward the racing aspect of the NCAR being 95% of the reason I attend or care to follow the event at all. This bias is far too overwhelming to overcome. There is nothing much I would rather experience than a good air race, served-up Reno style. The smell of competition is visceral as the air is literally shook apart. I think that the event would be just an empty shell without actual racing.

Regarding the “gotta present ‘em a World Class Airshow” theory.

I dunno. To me the fluff was always fluff with one exception. Watching Lefty or Hoover or even the T-33 doing aerobatics between races was such a gift. I think most of us would be happy watching between race flybys of the rare and exotic aircraft found in the Heritage collection. Toss in a loud Military demo periodically?
Clearly, many seats are filled by those wanting to see the Blues or T-Birds but there were some leaner years when the Blues and Birds could not be scheduled, was the gate down those years?

Requiring teams to qualify for limited slots.

Double edged sword. There are ramifications to this policy. One being the ultimate shrinking of the interested-in-racing AC owners. If you are interested in air racing your pet, ya gotta enter the arena at a much higher level of capability if there were just 16 slots, than if there were 32 slots. Sure you can have 32 wanabees vie for 16 slots for a short run, but those mid-pack and behind folks are going to run out of enthusiasm real quick.

That said, I agree 100% the show must constrict in some way to survive.

Hey Glen,
My days of pounding the hardwood are long since over and no, never worked an Aztec gig. I worked mostly NCAA Div III, Div II and some off-season D1 stuff, along NAIA and JuCo games all along the west coast. And my knees are now reminding me of the fact that counting scrimmages, camps, practices, and games I worked 100+ games a year for several years. My surgeon and I are on a first-name basis...never a good sign! Likely have both replaced during this airshow off-season.

Not sure how much more RARA can do re: "opening their books." They're a 501(c)3 and by law their financials are publicly available. I know of very few, if any, non-profits that freely open their kumono's for the world to poke around in. Remember, if the IRS filings are not up to snuff, it would likely result in exactly the kind of things we're all trying to avoid. I, for one, am satisfied with the manner in which RARA discloses their financial situation.

No question there is a risk to not running fully sanctioned "racing" in 2021. For one thing it would mean a two-year hiatus for those folks. Attrition and waning interest may be a factor. The trade-off is the real possibility of gaining a stronger foothold on financial stability and demonstrating that we're willing to do whatever is reasonably necessary to save this event. Yes, there are several known unknowns here. But the known knowns are undeniable. Maintaining BAU will likely not get RARA out of the red ink. And while I'll contribute to the cause again in a couple different ways, I'd like to have a greater understanding as to what RARA is considering for 2021 to avoid BAU. It seems a challenging scenario to throw $500K at the problem if it means you're faced with the same or similar problem next year.

I know it may come across as self-serving and believe me, that is NOT the case. That said, it's no secret that if you want to put butts in the bleachers your event must include military jet teams, single-ship demos, warbird acts, and the like. I know RARA has the numbers on gate for years with or without jet teams. I just don't know what they are of the top of my head. What I can say my partner and I work about 15 shows every year, and those shows that alternate between team or no team see a marked drop in attendance in off years. RARA's checkbook is not much different that yours or mine. If your balance is dwindling, you either need to reduce spending or increase income...in RARA's case, both would be even better. And the past decade as proven time and again that continuing to operate as we have in past is not going rebalance that checkbook. It's really that simple.

I take your point regarding the limitation of slots but I believe it is central to righting the ship by increasing the level of competition and truncating the length of the event. Will some folks become dissolutioned and decide not to participate...perhaps. But in essence what you're left with is a group of committed pilots and crews who, by one means or another, have demonstrated a willigness to work harder to go faster. And in the end, isn't that what "racing" is all about...going faster than the other guy?

Really appreciate your thoughts here, Glen. I can tell you that when the opportunity presents itself, much of what is kicked around here will be strongly considered in my thinking. Otherwise, I would not have bothered to reach out here. Can't say how much or if it will find its way into the cake RARA is baking, but rest assured it is greatly appreciated.

[CubersWrist]

Re: What If....2021

Does anyone know the logistics involved with the Ely races?
I gather like 50 people showed up, but if the slower racers need a qualifier/consolation event, I wonder if there are some options there. It's obviously big enough an area for the IF1/biplane course. I wonder if it's big enough for the bronze/medallion sport course?

This qualifier/consolation event doesn't need to be open to the public to limit risk of collateral damage and hopefully help with insurance cost. If the stars align (need to see some numbers, but the fact that the 2nd Ely race was cancelled says things are not all sunshine and rainbows) it might almost be a more affordable and easier way to enter air racing.

Also another thought is the High Sierra fly in shows you don't need the races to be in a densely populated area to make a popular event. High Sierra and Reno are different, but maybe a closed to the public qualifier event opens up some new airports. Then instead of close to a city(but not too close), lots of long runways, and not too busy that it can't be shut down during the races. If you lose the first requirement, maybe options open up?

Way off topic: I guess we could revert to seaplane racing and fly off the coast of major cities like Red Bull did...

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

Does anyone know the logistics involved with the Ely races?
I gather like 50 people showed up, but if the slower racers need a qualifier/consolation event, I wonder if there are some options there. It's obviously big enough an area for the IF1/biplane course. I wonder if it's big enough for the bronze/medallion sport course?

This qualifier/consolation event doesn't need to be open to the public to limit risk of collateral damage and hopefully help with insurance cost. If the stars align (need to see some numbers, but the fact that the 2nd Ely race was cancelled says things are not all sunshine and rainbows) it might almost be a more affordable and easier way to enter air racing.

Also another thought is the High Sierra fly in shows you don't need the races to be in a densely populated area to make a popular event. High Sierra and Reno are different, but maybe a closed to the public qualifier event opens up some new airports. Then instead of close to a city(but not too close), lots of long runways, and not too busy that it can't be shut down during the races. If you lose the first requirement, maybe options open up?

Way off topic: I guess we could revert to seaplane racing and fly off the coast of major cities like Red Bull did...

Wish I could opine on Ely but don't have anything to offer there. RARA has talked about expanding its footprint but one has to wonder about how realistic that may be, given the current situation. Might be an option to look into however.

Good one about Red Bull! How'd that work out...

[CubersWrist]

Re: What If....2021

Good one about Red Bull! How'd that work out...

That's because they weren't seaplanes and they were only racing against the clock. Reno seaplanes would be totally different. And then you got all the emergency runway you could need, no risk of hitting buildings or future encrouchment of housing developments, and population centers to view from the beach/high rise apartments.

but...saltwater would be bad....I'd need to look at the H1 list of sites.

[Big_Jim]

Re: What If....2021

Sport filled with colorful characters!

Always wondered exactly how much leverage RARA and the Classes have on each other WRT KRTS being essentially the only sandbox around...

At the time that this particular conversation too place, the Unlimiteds had just come off of a season where they held races at Miami, Reno and Mojave...so they felt that they had leverage to use against RARA that they did not have the only game in town.

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

That's because they weren't seaplanes and they were only racing against the clock. Reno seaplanes would be totally different. And then you got all the emergency runway you could need, no risk of hitting buildings or future encrouchment of housing developments, and population centers to view from the beach/high rise apartments.

but...saltwater would be bad....I'd need to look at the H1 list of sites.

At the time that this particular conversation too place, the Unlimiteds had just come off of a season where they held races at Miami, Reno and Mojave...so they felt that they had leverage to use against RARA that they did not have the only game in town.

Got it. Good info. Different times...

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: What If....2021

I just remembered my first few years at Reno National Championship Air Races (spelling it out for the benefit of search engine bots) First time I only went Sunday..... This would have been '79, if that's the year Steve went in. I don't think in any of the years after that where I managed to get a few more days in out there between job and wife.

Looking at it in marketing sense why movie theaters had double features and intermissions. Do you remember the little ditty they would play "Let's all go to the lobby..."

Fluff means sales for the close to the stands marketers big time. Mike Houghton told me more than once that a cold weekend was always a disaster for bottom line.. lots of commission.

Guess what I'm saying is, and forgive me if this has already been mentioned, that a fair amount of financial success of the event involves fees paid by vendors.

Butts in seats need to be motivated and given time to partake in this part of the scheme...

Again, forgive me if previously mentioned, I'm having an eye issue my readers only work if the screen it about three inches away, I can see pretty good at arm's length on stuff like the website but I follow the threads by my email notifications and my email text is just out of range.....

[Leo]

Re: What If....2021

With the cost of a booth and the RARA commission, there HAS to be money there. Not enough to support anything but it has to help. I know those fixed costs have kept me away from selling.
The "dead" spots give people time, like you said Wayne, to visit the various vendors and "facilities". Also gives me a chance for a quick nap...

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

With the cost of a booth and the RARA commission, there HAS to be money there. Not enough to support anything but it has to help. I know those fixed costs have kept me away from selling.
The "dead" spots give people time, like you said Wayne, to visit the various vendors and "facilities". Also gives me a chance for a quick nap...

Certainly not in my wheelhouse but according to the website, RARA charges $600 minimum for a booth, plus 20% of receipts with a minimum of $800. No idea how that actually pencils against what RARA spends on rental from RTAA and trash/recycling (believe that's over $400K) but let's say there are 75 booths. At a minimum RARA would see $105K from concessions ($45K from rent and $60K from sales). It would take some serious sales to break even there. I realize it may not be apples to apples to put concessions up against rent and trash but it does give you a sense of things.

Is it possible shorter/fewer days means lower concession revenue, I suppose that's entirely possible. But then the rent would be lower as well.

So many variables to consider here. Lots of moving parts...some within RARA's control, others...not so much.

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: What If....2021

Aside from the money issue for 2021 there is also as to where we are at with the Corona Virus issue restrictions as to whether people & air race teams will be willing to risk showing up?

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: What If....2021

Certainly not in my wheelhouse but according to the website, RARA charges $600 minimum for a booth, plus 20% of receipts with a minimum of $800. No idea how that actually pencils against what RARA spends on rental from RTAA and trash/recycling (believe that's over $400K) but let's say there are 75 booths. At a minimum RARA would see $105K from concessions ($45K from rent and $60K from sales). It would take some serious sales to break even there. I realize it may not be apples to apples to put concessions up against rent and trash but it does give you a sense of things.

Is it possible shorter/fewer days means lower concession revenue, I suppose that's entirely possible. But then the rent would be lower as well.

So many variables to consider here. Lots of moving parts...some within RARA's control, others...not so much.

Houghton sincerely told me on several occasions that beer sales could make or break the annual budget. A cold year usually meant they did not meet goals.. Like or dislike Mike, he did preside successfully for many years....

Bottom line though is that I think vendor sales are crucial to the event... something to think about while planning the action of the event I'm thinking..

[Leo]

Re: What If....2021

I sure hope we have a handle on this plague by then. Hopefully most of us will be vaccinated by then. I wonder though, my company has told those of us in at-risk situations (In my case underlying health) not to expect to be back in the office until 3rd quarter next year...

[Desertdawg]

Re: What If....2021

Isle of Man organizers announced that the June 2021 Isle of Man event will not be held until 2022.

We'll see what happens in our state, I know the January 2021 Garth Brooks concert in the new Raiders stadium is sold out.