What If....2021

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

Well, good news is we got the F-22 Raptor in 2021 as well as the Tbirds.

Bad news...no Blue Angels in 2022. TBirds haven't released their 2022 sked yet. Some sort of administrative issues in DC I suspect.

Really wish we could get both teams on an alternating year schedule. I know that for years where Reno does NOT have a jet team, local attendance suffers quite a bit.

Maybe the TBirds will make Reno an annual event!

[Leo]

Re: What If....2021

Yep. The locals show up for the teams. A lot leave before the final races after the teams land. The people I talk to (not regulars) also looove the military demo's and the noise, and the static military where the kiddies can interact is a biggie also.
A lot I know look at it like auto racing. "What is so great about a bunch of planes flying in circles".

[Fawkes]

Re: What If....2021

Well, good news is we got the F-22 Raptor in 2021 as well as the Tbirds.

Bad news...no Blue Angels in 2022. TBirds haven't released their 2022 sked yet. Some sort of administrative issues in DC I suspect.

Really wish we could get both teams on an alternating year schedule. I know that for years where Reno does NOT have a jet team, local attendance suffers quite a bit.

Maybe the TBirds will make Reno an annual event!

Owen,

Yeah - saw that earlier. Bummer. Do you have any sense of whether a more "airshow friendly" weekend like we have kicked around here would help tilt the scales on the demo teams' decision-making? Just curious if the potential perception that they are not the headliners, or that they at least share that role in a way that to my knowledge no other airshow requires, has any impact on a yes/no. Obviously, the daily schedule could also play a part from a perspective of being part of a long, heavily packed day.

I didn't weigh-in at the time but your post which effectively positions the challenge as evolve or die is, as usual, spot on. It is the nature of the universe. Doesn't mean we/I have to like it but it does mean we/I have to abide by it.

James

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

Yep. The locals show up for the teams. A lot leave before the final races after the teams land. The people I talk to (not regulars) also looove the military demo's and the noise, and the static military where the kiddies can interact is a biggie also.
A lot I know look at it like auto racing. "What is so great about a bunch of planes flying in circles".

It's true, Leo. And that's who we must appeal to if this thing is going to last. Which is another reason I continue to push for all military teams/single ships to stage at RTS, not RNO. Watching the demo teams prepare, start, taxi, launch, perform, recover, taxi, and shut down is all part of the show. And they regard it as a very important part of their performance. Remote shows are not necessarily welcomed with open arms.

As you say (and I fully realize it's blasphemy), those fans would MUCH rather watch the entire demo team performance than watch small planes flying in circles. It simply doesn't resonate with them as much.

[Leo]

Re: What If....2021

The negative I have about them on-site is the ramp space they take up, right in front of where I sit, and the huge time chunk their whole show takes. But that is just me.
You can hear the crowd clapping and whistling during their ground show so it is a tradeoff. I know the FBO likes the fuel sales, even though it takes a lot of effort on the fuelers part.

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

The negative I have about them on-site is the ramp space they take up, right in front of where I sit, and the huge time chunk their whole show takes. But that is just me.
You can hear the crowd clapping and whistling during their ground show so it is a tradeoff. I know the FBO likes the fuel sales, even though it takes a lot of effort on the fuelers part.

I hear you Leo and understand. And to your point, for every one of you and your neighbors it's very likely there's someone else who wishes they had your seat!

[Leo]

Re: What If....2021

Oh, for sure. I don't ramp-sit as much as I used to. Either pits if I can visit someone or a cart if I can get one.

[Fawkes]

Re: What If....2021

Owen,

Yeah - saw that earlier. Bummer. Do you have any sense of whether a more "airshow friendly" weekend like we have kicked around here would help tilt the scales on the demo teams' decision-making? Just curious if the potential perception that they are not the headliners, or that they at least share that role in a way that to my knowledge no other airshow requires, has any impact on a yes/no. Obviously, the daily schedule could also play a part from a perspective of being part of a long, heavily packed day.

I didn't weigh-in at the time but your post which effectively positions the challenge as evolve or die is, as usual, spot on. It is the nature of the universe. Doesn't mean we/I have to like it but it does mean we/I have to abide by it.

James

Apologies for quoting my own post - just putting my thoughts together in one place.

When thinking about the loose structure of a more “airshow friendly” weekend combined with Leo’s comments about site lines, etc...

What if the races were more of a show within a show not just in terms of schedule on the weekend but actual space? Die hard air race fans already buy pit passes. Change that to “Race Pass.” Things like the box seats of old, Section 3, pit access are all behind the “gate within the gate.” That way race fans can still feel immersed in what they (we) love, have clear views from their seats, etc. The Race Pass is the only ticket available for Wed/Thu/Fri and you even only have that part of the ramp open to help reduce operational footprint on those days. On the weekend, the locals who are coming primarily for the show can buy a GA ticket (part of the Race Pass on Sat/Sun) that is cheaper and closer to the airshow acts when on the ground. All the main concessions would still be in the GA area so they have the larger audience to draw from.

I know it would require some rethinking about how things are laid out but if the field sizes for the classes are capped, I’d think it would have to be workable. Biggest change is the Jets - but again, I cannot imagine smart minds couldn’t figure it out.

Not sure this is significant financially in a direct way (revenue from the Race Pass sales) but in terms of supporting the evolution of the weekend to a broader audience while still saving as much of the air race magic as possible, it might help overall health of the event.

I don’t know, Owen. I may be chasing something that doesn’t need to be chased but worth thinking out loud - I’m not scared of being wrong...happened before, will happen again.

James

[Leo]

Re: What If....2021

As long as it doesn't end up like the Hamilton Air Races or the last Salinas airshow I went to. You got in at one price, then had to pay again to get a seat. Problem was they put the stands in front and corralled the rest behind them for the most part. Couldn't see a damn thing!

[Fawkes]

Re: What If....2021

As long as it doesn't end up like the Hamilton Air Races or the last Salinas airshow I went to. You got in at one price, then had to pay again to get a seat. Problem was they put the stands in front and corralled the rest behind them for the most part. Couldn't see a damn thing!

Agreed. In my mind, the Race Pass should be a quality air race experience. Not saying it has to be cushioned seating and open bar (although I do love both!) but that those who go that route get to enjoy the passion we have all held for so long by being able to see, talk, touch, feel racing. And to do so surrounded by others seeking the same thing.

James

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

Sorry I haven't posted sooner. Immersed in all things ICAS Convention until 1700.

Thanks all for the food for thought. Good stuff, fellas!

More later...

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

Apologies for quoting my own post - just putting my thoughts together in one place.

When thinking about the loose structure of a more “airshow friendly” weekend combined with Leo’s comments about site lines, etc...

What if the races were more of a show within a show not just in terms of schedule on the weekend but actual space? Die hard air race fans already buy pit passes. Change that to “Race Pass.” Things like the box seats of old, Section 3, pit access are all behind the “gate within the gate.” That way race fans can still feel immersed in what they (we) love, have clear views from their seats, etc. The Race Pass is the only ticket available for Wed/Thu/Fri and you even only have that part of the ramp open to help reduce operational footprint on those days. On the weekend, the locals who are coming primarily for the show can buy a GA ticket (part of the Race Pass on Sat/Sun) that is cheaper and closer to the airshow acts when on the ground. All the main concessions would still be in the GA area so they have the larger audience to draw from.

I know it would require some rethinking about how things are laid out but if the field sizes for the classes are capped, I’d think it would have to be workable. Biggest change is the Jets - but again, I cannot imagine smart minds couldn’t figure it out.

Not sure this is significant financially in a direct way (revenue from the Race Pass sales) but in terms of supporting the evolution of the weekend to a broader audience while still saving as much of the air race magic as possible, it might help overall health of the event.

I don’t know, Owen. I may be chasing something that doesn’t need to be chased but worth thinking out loud - I’m not scared of being wrong...happened before, will happen again.

James

Interesting thought, James. I'm going to have to noodle that a bit. Are you saying the Race Pass grants access to the pits, hangars, box seats and certain areas of the Reserved and/or GA granstands (basically what you get now with a Pit Pass) for the five day period, and those who are more interested in the airshow side of things purchase a GA Airshow ticket for Sat and Sun only?

Did I understand that correctly?

[Fawkes]

Re: What If....2021

Interesting thought, James. I'm going to have to noodle that a bit. Are you saying the Race Pass grants access to the pits, hangars, box seats and certain areas of the Reserved and/or GA granstands (basically what you get now with a Pit Pass) for the five day period, and those who are more interested in the airshow side of things purchase a GA Airshow ticket for Sat and Sun only?

Did I understand that correctly?

So...first, this is not some earth-shattering change. More evolutionary than revolutionary. Whereas now, folks think of the ramp as the main area and then the pits, I am suggesting the airshow (main) area and the race area. The difference between today's pits and tomorrow's race areas are loosely (with the caveat that all is wide-open for discussion...)

The race area will not only include the pits and some level of vendor activity but also seating that can be either all open seating, open plus reserved, or open, reserved, and box. The key being the ramp space in front is kept clear so that good site lines are available. Race staging can occur right there so the race fans get a good view. You could still do a Checkered Flag Club type thing (if enough demand warrants) for the race side but you would definitely want some type of Flightline Club for the airshow side on Sat/Sun like most airshows have these days. Airshow side will also have open and probably reserved seating - would not expect box seats on that side but who knows. Demo teams (incl jets) can stage at RTS in front of the airshow side so that basically that side looks and feels like any high-quality show.

Race Pass will also include access to the airshow side but restrict them to sit on the race side for capacity concerns. Like I said, the ramp will have to be rethought but (especially if class sizes are capped) there should be a way to make it work. You could likely expand the race side east from where the current break for the pits is. You might could even have the seating be next to each other (race and airshow) near the home pylon line - just stage race in front of race and airshow in front of airshow. We might want them spread apart a bit to help deep angle site lines and to potentially put something just inside the race side that airshow attendees can see and makes them want to reconsider their choice the next year. Unlimited pits?

As far as tickets go...airshow tickets are just like any other airshow ticket. You buy Sat or Sun and they get to do everything on the airshow side and sit/eat based on whatever level airshow ticket they bought. For the Race Pass, I think some number crunching is in order to determine the best course of action. Could be what you said...the Race Pass is a five day ticket that grants access to the race area for all five and the airshow area for Sat/Sun. Alternately, you could do daily tickets with Sat/Sun being more to include the cost of the airshow. Or some combination or hybrid model. In the short term, you may want to have some way for an airshow ticket to upgrade to a race pass on site just to maximize the return but you need to be careful and honor seating capacity (i.e. - "We have 200 Race Passes left for today. Get yours now!") Long term, that may go away (meaning Race Passes sell out) but probably a good way in the immediate future to help the day of bottom-line.

I know some real Tetris work would need to be done with the ramp space but my old non-radar visualization skills say we should be pretty good on most things.

Ultimately, the goal is to be able to strongly market the races to race fans and the airshow to everyone else.

James

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

So...first, this is not some earth-shattering change. More evolutionary than revolutionary. Whereas now, folks think of the ramp as the main area and then the pits, I am suggesting the airshow (main) area and the race area. The difference between today's pits and tomorrow's race areas are loosely (with the caveat that all is wide-open for discussion

The race area will not only include the pits and some level of vendor activity but also seating that can be either all open seating, open plus reserved, or open, reserved, and box. The key being the ramp space in front is kept clear so that good site lines are available. Race staging can occur right there so the race fans get a good view. You could still do a Checkered Flag Club type thing (if enough demand warrants) for the race side but you would definitely want some type of Flightline Club for the airshow side on Sat/Sun like most airshows have these days. Airshow side will also have open and probably reserved seating - would not expect box seats on that side but who knows. Demo teams (incl jets) can stage at RTS in front of the airshow side so that basically that side looks and feels like any high-quality show.

Race Pass will also include access to the airshow side but restrict them to sit on the race side for capacity concerns. Like I said, the ramp will have to be rethought but (especially if class sizes are capped) there should be a way to make it work. You could likely expand the race side east from where the current break for the pits is. You might could even have the seating be next to each other (race and airshow) near the home pylon line - just stage race in front of race and airshow in front of airshow. We might want them spread apart a bit to help deep angle site lines and to potentially put something just inside the race side that airshow attendees can see and makes them want to reconsider their choice the next year. Unlimited pits?

As far as tickets go...airshow tickets are just like any other airshow ticket. You buy Sat or Sun and they get to do everything on the airshow side and sit/eat based on whatever level airshow ticket they bought. For the Race Pass, I think some number crunching is in order to determine the best course of action. Could be what you said...the Race Pass is a five day ticket that grants access to the race area for all five and the airshow area for Sat/Sun. Alternately, you could do daily tickets with Sat/Sun being more to include the cost of the airshow. Or some combination or hybrid model. In the short term, you may want to have some way for an airshow ticket to upgrade to a race pass on site just to maximize the return but you need to be careful and honor seating capacity (i.e. - "We have 200 Race Passes left for today. Get yours now!") Long term, that may go away (meaning Race Passes sell out) but probably a good way in the immediate future to help the day of bottom-line.

I know some real Tetris work would need to be done with the ramp space but my old non-radar visualization skills say we should be pretty good on most things.

Ultimately, the goal is to be able to strongly market the races to race fans and the airshow to everyone else.

James

Got it...I see where you're going. Interesting concept to be sure and one worth noodling over in earnest.

Thanks for taking the time to pull this together and advise. With your permission I may consider percolating on this and mentioning the jist of it in my annual After Action Report to RARA...OK, well not really after action but your get it.

Thanks again, James. Good stuff...

[Fawkes]

Re: What If....2021

Got it...I see where you're going. Interesting concept to be sure and one worth noodling over in earnest.

Thanks for taking the time to pull this together and advise. With your permission I may consider percolating on this and mentioning the gist of it in my annual After Action Report to RARA...OK, well not really after action but your get it.

Thanks again, James. Good stuff...

Absolutely. Use anything in whatever way might make a difference. Like I shared, the thought process behind this to create a more intimate (smaller, focused) area for the die-hards that feels as much like the halcyon days of old as possible but leaving both physical and marketing space for a world-class airshow.

James