What If....2021

[flyingjibus]

Re: What If....2021

Curious as to your thought regarding "but people and the FAA will likely not stomach what comes along with that." In what way?

making Jets "unlimited" . Giving Sport more room to experiment and add some more reward to motivate. This is a "Risky Business" . The things that made the golden era great also increased those risks. To borrow from F1 again (thank you for the edification on that, I had no idea. CRICKET??? hahaha) What was acceptable as coming along with those risks in the 60s/70s golden era of that sport would not fly in todays world.

its a difficult thing to accept that part of the reason this is exciting is because its dangerous. We need to accept that we dont like parade races because they are not exciting, and they are not exciting because they are not dangerous.

Its possible to do everything we can to make things as safe as they can be when something happens, but striving for a level of safety that makes it so nothing ever happens is also going to affect "Excitement"

I dont ever want to see another accident. I have seen enough for 10 lifetimes. but I understand that if I am watching an actual race, with airplanes going as fast as they can, that there is a chance I am going to.

I think for obvious, deeply good hearted, and necessary reasons the races have been steered towards an impossible goal of creating the most exciting races where no one gets hurt. Those two things are counter productive to each other.

I am not saying that should change. I am saying that it needs to be recognized and embraced in order to move forward.

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

My first Reno was as a kid in 1966 and I've missed very few since that time. Darryl Greenamyer was my pilot hero at the time followed by Lyle Shelton etc. I went to Reno many years only to see the unlimiteds and wasn't interested in much else mainly because of the noise, the speeds, and the competition. Over the years as I got older and wised up I became a big fan of the F-1's and then the biplanes started to inquire me. I was not at all excited about the jet class when it came along since many races were slower than the unlimiteds. As the jets got more innovative and speeds increased and the approached 500 mph and then went well over my interested went way up and I enjoy them. The sport class, to me, could be the savior of the races. When all the sudden you had these aircraft going as fast as the slower unlimiteds and when my boy hood hero Darryl Greenamyer showed up to seriously race in the sport class I got extremely excited about the potential. Early on when he would take race 33 up in the afternoon's to do testing during qualification week and he would do those high circuits around the airport and to hear the howl that Continental engine was putting out it sent shivers up and down my spine. No, it was no where close to Rarebear with the 3-blade prop on it but it made it all even more exciting. As the sport class chased 400 mph there was lots of speculation about who would/could do 400. It's been exciting and the innovation has been exciting as well. When Andy Findlay on the Hanger Hags episode in his hanger mentioned that the current airframes were probably about maxed out as far as how fast they could go and it would probably take new airframes to take the sport speeds higher--the thoughts of that really excited me. They aren't going to do it without more prize money however. For all intents and purposes the unlimited are all done and I can't believe I'm saying that! No one is going to put money into modifying any of them to be as fast as what we've seen in the past, let alone bring what's already modified and race them hard. AS much as we would love to see that--it isn't happening. Since racing is all about speed, I'd love to see enough money sent to the sport class and see where it goes. You get that kind of competition going and I believe you would have a class that would replace the high end unlimited speeds in time with innovation like we haven't seen yet or even knew existed--and it probably doesn't--yet! Having been around in the heyday of the unlimiteds--what we're seeing now doesn't do a whole lot for me. Sure I go to see them but I'm spending more and more time around the sport class racers during qualifications week. I even think that the sport class should now be the feature last race of the day on Sundays. Don't get me wrong, I love Dreadnaught, but when you know right after it's won the gold race at a greatly reduced power setting that it will probably do the same thing the next year--not a lot of excitement there for me. That's not the way it is with the sport class--there's still anticipation and excitement of the unknown. That's what I like about racing--in the F-1's--lots of anticipation with that class. Not so much in the biplanes but it sounds like that time could be coming for them very soon. I'm still trying to figure out the jets as there seems to be different pilots flying the same jet the next year a lot and I'm getting too old I guess to keep up with all that--but they're getting more exciting. Sorry T-6's--never been a fan--whoever comes down the shoot on the pole wins almost always--do appreciate the class being there on race weekend so I can get a potty break and not miss other stuff I want to see. OK I'm rambling now. Just my 1 cent worth...

All good point and worth much more that $0.01 I'd say.

That's one of hte things about Reno...there's something there for just about everyone. Hot, heavy metal; sleek, fast homebuilts; jets; warbirds; etc. One man's pleasure is another man potty-break!

Sure that 15yrs ago some folks would have balked at the thought of a Sport Gold race winner qualifying at just under 400mph (though JP qualified at 361+ in 2005).

Time will tell how this all shakes out. One thing seems certain...maintaining BAU is not an option.

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

Disclaimer this is me thinking out loud but. Yes. More or less.

I’ve mentioned in another thread that Reno is more like a track day than a professional(paid) racing event.

At a track day people pay to race their cars in ways that would normally be illegal. The track has a relatively simple task of getting participants to cover the costs. The big unknown of spectator attendance doesn’t enter the equation. This also sets us at a purse of zero.

Now the fans are customers too but considering most teams would show up without any spectators that shows (to me) who the bigger customer is.

I initially would like to say all ticket sales go toward the new purse. This puts the onus on teams to attract fans and sponsors (kinda like what Trent Palmer is doing now). But RARA would naturally be better suited to foot the cost of logistics and porta potties and organizing the grand stands etc etc. so I think some kind of split of the attendance/vendor money would be reasonable between RARA and the racers. Just so RARA could cover the cost of people attending the event. This would incorporate any costs associated with additional airshow acts.

You end up doing most of the same stuff. But I think the potential end result is that RARA could become more stable with more racing rather than having to settle for less.

That's pretty much the whole reason for this forum of Wayne's...thinking out loud and online!

I understand where you're coming from here Thomas.

On the surface I'm struggling to see the math penciling out. Unless of course each and every racer and race team is willing to fork up an entry free that is exponentially higher by a factor unknown to me. I don't know what it takes to enter at Reno but suffice to say it seems likely you could add a "0" to that number and still not meet the needs of the bottom line. Dunno...

To open the participants gates (forgetting the fan quotient for a minute) takes serious money. Recall, you're darn close to $1MM dollars just to rent the airport and pay your insurance premiums. At, say, 120 total racers, just those costs alone will mean an entry fee of $8500 per racer. Again, no fans, sponsorships, concessions, etc. taken into account here.

I'm not sure the "What if we held and event and nobody came" approach is a viable one, given the huge fixed costs. Racing auto's on a track that does business throughout the year (or at least several months of the year), and doesn't have the regulatory requirements and oversight authorities breathing down their necks is a bit different. I don't know what a drag strip pays to host the NHRA event but I'd be surprised if it's $1MM just to open the gate. I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time today. That's the thing about Reno...it only happens here. Not much to compare it to, really. Off the top of my head can't think of another motorsport that draws the kind of fans Reno does that only happens once a year.

If as you say the racers and race teams are to foot the bill to play in the sandbox, RARA's stake in all this would have to be greatly reduced or virtually eliminated. I'd have some serious doubts that vendors would spend the time, effort, energy, and money to put up their tent at an event that not only doesn't draw fans but sees them as being of somewhat lesser importance. How likely is it that racers and race teams would be willing put up serious amounts of money without the expectation of a even a modest purse?

Thomas, apologies if I've missed your intent here.

As you say...just me thinking out loud and on line. A very dangerous proposition!

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

making Jets "unlimited" . Giving Sport more room to experiment and add some more reward to motivate. This is a "Risky Business" . The things that made the golden era great also increased those risks. To borrow from F1 again (thank you for the edification on that, I had no idea. CRICKET??? hahaha) What was acceptable as coming along with those risks in the 60s/70s golden era of that sport would not fly in todays world.

its a difficult thing to accept that part of the reason this is exciting is because its dangerous. We need to accept that we dont like parade races because they are not exciting, and they are not exciting because they are not dangerous.

Its possible to do everything we can to make things as safe as they can be when something happens, but striving for a level of safety that makes it so nothing ever happens is also going to affect "Excitement"

I dont ever want to see another accident. I have seen enough for 10 lifetimes. but I understand that if I am watching an actual race, with airplanes going as fast as they can, that there is a chance I am going to.

I think for obvious, deeply good hearted, and necessary reasons the races have been steered towards an impossible goal of creating the most exciting races where no one gets hurt. Those two things are counter productive to each other.

I am not saying that should change. I am saying that it needs to be recognized and embraced in order to move forward.

Yeah, don't see the FAA walking back the max speed/energy vectoring/scatter pattern limitations for the course.

Guess I'd push back a bit on the "excitement/danger" quotient thought. I'd argue that flying an aircraft at 250-500mph less than 100' off the deck is, by defintion, dangerous. But to your point, watching 7 aircraft in a parade, no overtaking, is something less than "exciting." However, exciting or not, things can still go very, very wrong in a heartbeat.

The controls placed on RARA will not soon disappear. They are based on mathematical certainties and historical facts.

To your point, we must accept what is in front of us and adapt. Otherwise...

[CubersWrist]

Re: What If....2021

Owen I don't disagree on any particular point.

If the teams can get the money together I think the business model is simpler but as you rightly pointed out that only works if they can get the money.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: What If....2021

Found a storage drive (SSD) with some older and recent images on it. Strikes me that a lot of what the competition is a showcase of some really great restorations probably running takeoff power or somewhere less, frickin' fun to watch and we see some great rare planes doing amazing things close up!

Love the really raw balls-out competition of the "little guys"!

Races like "The Kid" and Tiger back a few years may never happen again..

And the bottom line, from what I can see is the insurance costs for a guy to bring his rare ride or any of the other racers as well. From what I've heard the premium for the week is astronomical!

However you guys do it Owen, I'll do my best to be there, anything we can do for you here or elsewhere you have my number!

Happy New Year!!

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

Thanks, Wayne. And thanks for all you do for this event. It does not go unappreciated, I assure you!

RARA is working on the "Re-accreditation" from the FAA for the races right now. Happens on a bi-annual basis this time of year.

Shortly we'll set sail on the nuts and bolts of the event. Much to consider.

[GRNDP51]

Re: What If....2021

I'm usually one to add some comments on threads like these, but haven't yet. I watched some of the comments on the first few pages and then stopped. Just refreshed where we are at with the recent ones, but need to go back and see some of the middle.

The thread started out with an interesting idea of saving costs by limiting qualifying and racing, which off the cuff annoyed me and I discredited it. Thinking more about it, it's not a bad idea. I've never been able to experience a full week of Reno (and REALLY want to), but I do feel the Sunday-Wednesday portion could possibly be condensed to save money. The only thing I don't like about this is half of the fun of Reno is the anticipation of RACE WEEK with arrivals starting on Thursday/Friday and 10 of the best days of the year to come. I would miss this.

The other idea was condensing classes so there are limited entries based on speed. Fine by me, just think it needs to be worked out properly where pilots aren't pissed they wasted their time showing up just to not make the field, and then don't want to participate at all.

Lastly as these threads seem to go to the Unlimiteds, I don't think the Unlimiteds are done, and I think there is still excitement to be had. I currently see the class in a "holding pattern" of sorts, with good stuff brewing that could make for an exciting future. Maybe I'm holding too much hope on the Tsunami's/etc., but at least there still is light at the end of the tunnel if we make it there. Let me take a step back away from the light at the end of the tunnel that might be a few (if not more) years away and look at where we are as of today. I think the class is in a refresh mode trying to figure itself out. There are plenty of Yak airframes that could really add to an exciting (lower speed) Unlimited class. We will have to see how this pans out. I've learned to accept that a 500mph race with screaming Merlins and 3350's isn't necessarily what makes the class exciting, and Miss America has helped me realize this. Miss A was the first plane in awhile that had this secrecy about her during the off season, and Doc showing up with RRIII pieces and a great sounding Merlin was a treat! I've simply lowered my standards of what I think the Unlimited class should be and am very excited to see Sawbones return, Miss A come back the hottest she's been, and hopefully see some other additions like Dusty's Yak and Race 64

A side note is flyingjibus' point about danger=excitement; I definitely agree. I don't want to see accidents, but the occasional maydays that normal airshows don't have make the class and Reno as a whole what it is. I think the Sport class shows this year after year and it's helped me with this lack of "danger" in the Unlimiteds. I just don't know if the "Unlimited or nothing" guys look at the Sport class that way...

[Guest]

Re: What If....2021

I'm usually one to add some comments on threads like these, but haven't yet. I watched some of the comments on the first few pages and then stopped. Just refreshed where we are at with the recent ones, but need to go back and see some of the middle.

The thread started out with an interesting idea of saving costs by limiting qualifying and racing, which off the cuff annoyed me and I discredited it. Thinking more about it, it's not a bad idea. I've never been able to experience a full week of Reno (and REALLY want to), but I do feel the Sunday-Wednesday portion could possibly be condensed to save money. The only thing I don't like about this is half of the fun of Reno is the anticipation of RACE WEEK with arrivals starting on Thursday/Friday and 10 of the best days of the year to come. I would miss this.

The other idea was condensing classes so there are limited entries based on speed. Fine by me, just think it needs to be worked out properly where pilots aren't pissed they wasted their time showing up just to not make the field, and then don't want to participate at all.

Lastly as these threads seem to go to the Unlimiteds, I don't think the Unlimiteds are done, and I think there is still excitement to be had. I currently see the class in a "holding pattern" of sorts, with good stuff brewing that could make for an exciting future. Maybe I'm holding too much hope on the Tsunami's/etc., but at least there still is light at the end of the tunnel if we make it there. Let me take a step back away from the light at the end of the tunnel that might be a few (if not more) years away and look at where we are as of today. I think the class is in a refresh mode trying to figure itself out. There are plenty of Yak airframes that could really add to an exciting (lower speed) Unlimited class. We will have to see how this pans out. I've learned to accept that a 500mph race with screaming Merlins and 3350's isn't necessarily what makes the class exciting, and Miss America has helped me realize this. Miss A was the first plane in awhile that had this secrecy about her during the off season, and Doc showing up with RRIII pieces and a great sounding Merlin was a treat! I've simply lowered my standards of what I think the Unlimited class should be and am very excited to see Sawbones return, Miss A come back the hottest she's been, and hopefully see some other additions like Dusty's Yak and Race 64

A side note is flyingjibus' point about danger=excitement; I definitely agree. I don't want to see accidents, but the occasional maydays that normal airshows don't have make the class and Reno as a whole what it is. I think the Sport class shows this year after year and it's helped me with this lack of "danger" in the Unlimiteds. I just don't know if the "Unlimited or nothing" guys look at the Sport class that way...

Thanks for chimming in, GP. Good stuff.

I believe we could satisfy virtually all classes and performers with a Wed-Sun event. Would it mean a fundamental change in how we qualify, race and perform. Yes, it would. As for the issue of some racers getting pissed, taking their bat and ball and going home, I guess I'd argue...that's racing. Burn some midnight oil and come back next year able to run faster and jump higher.

I suppose to some degree my point is does Reno exist to give all comers a place to play at RARA's expense, or does it exist to put on the fastest racing possible? There are arguments on both sides. And smarter minds than mine will be weighing all options and making those decisions.

You may be right RE: the UNL class. Time will tell. There is some hope on the horizon with Tsunami rebuild, existing teams constantly working to refine their ships, etc. And to your point, resetting expectations is in order for the UNL class, at least for the forerseeable future. I, for one, would be very happy with highly competitive racing at 400mph vs. a race of one or two 485mph ships and then...the parade. Not exactly riviting entertainment.

Speaking of entertainment, that's a question as well. In general your typical airshow or aviation event is about entertaintment. It's called an air"show" for a reason.

Does that moniker fit Reno? Is it entertainment, or does it exist to serve a community of racers and, oh...BTW...we have a few entertainers to throw into the mix? Is the answer somewhere in between? Are they mutually exclusive? Can they co-exist?

I'd argue Reno has a unique opportunity to reassess, reinvent, restructure, and chart a course for the third decade of the century and beyond. The Damndemic affords them that chance. Use it as a spark...not an excuse.