Separate Racing from Airshow

[Guest]

Thoughts Anyone:

Racing only from 0800 - 1500.

Airshow only from 1500- 1730.

Three tiered ticketing...Race only...Airshow only...Combo?

Sticking around for the Airshow?

Friday or Saturday twilight show?

Fewer days?

Shorter days?

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I like the idea of an evening airshow. After seeing the ones at Oshkosh, they are really pretty cool. The downside is no fireworks out here, the course will turn into a raging inferno. (That would really put a damper on the racing.) As for racing only, there is so much down time between races that you need filler. Otherwise you have dead time. Also, those of us shooting from the pylons just get screwed with the light, unless there are more pylons open for us to shoot from with good light. I can't see a way to separate the two since the airshow takes up the dead space between the races.

Will

[Fawkes]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Thoughts Anyone:

Racing only from 0800 - 1500.

Airshow only from 1500- 1730.

Three tiered ticketing...Race only...Airshow only...Combo?

Sticking around for the Airshow?

Friday or Saturday twilight show?

Fewer days?

Shorter days?

Owen,

Likely more thoughts later but some quick ones…

As per previous discussions, I like the racing then airshow concept. Specific times should be set by what both sides need on any given day. Further discussion should explore whether an intermission would be appropriate (likely no more than 30 if any at all.)

For tickets, I would suspect you need to go with an all-day option and then an afternoon only option that was heavily discounted to try and attract some new blood or those with more constrained financial positions that still would like to see at least some of the show. Logistically you do not want to have to worry about clearing people out - once they are in they can stay in for the remainder of the day.

I liked the Wed-Sun schedule that we discussed several months back so yes to looking at shortening the week overall. Twilight show is absolutely worth exploring, especially Friday (might get a fair amount of afternoon-only sales if you did.)

Consider me in and with full racing but shorter overall days Wed/Thu, twilight Friday, and full days Sat/Sun, I would likely attend every day from beginning to end.

James

[kennsmithf2g]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Shorter days, shorter weeks mean less air racing. To me, less racing slots mean less incentive to get a team together and develop a racer. I sit in the bleachers and ride the tram and I like to talk to the people. Many locals I talk to are unaware that racing starts at 8:00AM. Locals that show up at noon ask me what time will the biplanes be racing "this afternoon". Do the local news outlets carry the racing schedule for the "next day"?

I like evening/night air shows. Been to a few. What I don't like is finding my car in a pitch-black parking lot afterwards and trying to dodge people in a pitch-black parking lot. Another issue is I have yet to be to an evening event that has lights in the porta-johns.

[Pete]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Shorter days, shorter weeks mean less air racing. To me, less racing slots mean less incentive to get a team together and develop a racer. I sit in the bleachers and ride the tram and I like to talk to the people. Many locals I talk to are unaware that racing starts at 8:00AM. Locals that show up at noon ask me what time will the biplanes be racing "this afternoon". Do the local news outlets carry the racing schedule for the "next day"?

I like evening/night air shows. Been to a few. What I don't like is finding my car in a pitch-black parking lot afterwards and trying to dodge people in a pitch-black parking lot. Another issue is I have yet to be to an evening event that has lights in the porta-johns.

If the locals don't know the racing starts at 8:00, it should start with something louder. ;-)

[wadeh]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Racing only from 0800 - 1500.

I would be fine with that.

Airshow only from 1500- 1730.

I would be a bit less fine with this. I do like to have some aviation activity to fill the time between races. If it were possible to keep the race schedule tight enough that there wasn't a huge amount of down time, I might be OK with it.

One idea that comes to mind is, would it be possible to get each class to send out an announcer between races, and not just during the races? The idea is that they would get somebody behind the mic who is intimately familiar with the happenings of their class. It'd be great to hear at least a little something about each of the teams and how their week is going from someone who really knows. It would also be interesting to get this information when I'm not actively watching a race. To be clear, I am talking about actual information (which doesn't need to be technical in nature, but should at least be relevant and true), and not just filler that would be the same every day and of questionable accuracy. I don't think that it needs to be a long winded thing, so the regular announcers would still have plenty of time, too.

Three tiered ticketing...Race only...Airshow only...Combo?

Three tiered might be tricky, since you'd need to clear the stands between racing and airshow, or at least have some way to check tickets. A two tier system might be better, where the airshow is included with the races, but it would be possible to buy an "airshow only" ticket that grants admission after racing for the day completes.

Sticking around for the Airshow?

Maybe one night per year, but it's a long enough day that I'd probably skip the airshow most days. For particularly rare or unusual acts, I would probably make sure to be there.

Friday or Saturday twilight show?

Not my thing, but if it brings in additional revenue, then I am all for it.

Fewer days?

Shorter days?

I would be fine with either fewer or shorter days.

The big concern that I have, is that I'm led to believe that the airshow is an important part of revenue that helps to fund racing. As such, I don't want to put racing funds at risk. If it would be a positive, financially, to move the airshow after racing finishes, then I think that it's worth further investigation. If it would reduce revenue, then I would not be in favor. I mean, "having" to watch airshow acts as a cost of watching racing is a bit like "having" to have chocolate sauce in order to have ice cream...

[Guest]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Great feedback guys...thanks much!

The downtime between races is something I've considered and certainly appreciate. There are a few options here that don't involve airborne acts. Some ground based entertainment, live interviews on the big screen with racers and/or performers streamed from the pits, etc. Oh, and...can't tell you how many times I've heard die-hard racing fans say they use the performer slots to "hit the head, grab a beer and dog, etc....(including several members of this forum!)

Basically the down time during "rejoins" varies from 6-7 mintues (Jets and UNL) to close to 10 minutes (Sport Medallion). If the winds are a factor then of course the down time can greatly increase. Though I have to say while we scrubbed numerous races on Saturday this year, EVERY PERFORMER flew...just sayin.

From a safety of flight standpoint I do NOT like having performers in the air during a rejoin. It is a very tight fit and frequently the airshow act is cut short because the class is "Two mintues from the Chute." Not fair to the performer. Bigger issue...if a racer has an emergency and is RTB, by definition we have two controllers (myself and the race controller) on two separate frequencies managing the same emergency. Any emergency A/C that is RTB has all six RWY's available to them and it's entirely possible that selection may not be made until late in the emergency. Depending on the position of the performer at the time (on the X axis it's doable, on the "Y" axis, it's a serious issue) that creates conflict. If it was my call...no performers during a rejoin. In 2021 we had three performers who went up during rejoins....all of them were cut short, including the Honda Jet, which is a revenue matter as well. That simply cannot happen. If folks are here to watch racing, they'll happily grab another cocktail or a dog and a beer in anticipation of "They're Coming Down the Chute!"

Two-tiered pricing seems like a better option. Once folks are in...they're in. While I believe in the honor system, we all know how that can turn out!

Again back to the safety flight issue. Fact is, we're operational for 8-9 days, from 0600 to 1800 when you consider our first briefings are 0615 and the Mass Debrief is :30 after LROD (Last Racer on Deck). So if we finish at 1730, debrief start @ 1800 and typically won't end until 1900 or after. That is NOT a sustainable operational plan for staff, volunteers, pilots, or crews.

By bifurcating the racing from the performers we can entertain a variety of advantages. Mass Debriefs start around 1530 and conclude around 1630 (no performers attend this debrief); TFR's are much easier to manage; no performers during rejoins (see above); offers a good gauge of who the audience is and why they're attending; air traffic control operations are greatly simplified; air racers and performers are afforded an opportunity to operate in an environment which is exclusive to them...and many others beneifts. I understand much of this is operational and "behind the scenes"; however, if the back of the house is not running smoothly, the front of the house will suffer.

As for Media Ops, access to pylons is much more open than in past years. Some pylons are off limits due to geography (too difficult to get to or too close to duty RWY, etc.) Granted you may lose some "golden hour" late in the day light...I get that, believe me. But the bigger picture (pun intended) is the greater issue.

Much to consider for 2022 and beyond. It's apparent that Reno will struggle to lock in a military jet team on an annual basis. Many reasons for that...and that's for another time. Going forward securing a jet team should be considered the gravy...not the meat and potatoes. We have an opportunity in front of us in 2022 and 2023 to consider some form of restructuring to offer a level of racing and entertainment that not only keeps our base happy but brings in folks who will add to that base in the long run.

Not saying any of my proposals are the answer...and I sincerely appreciate this forums contributions. Believe me they do NOT go unnoticed.

Hope everyone has a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

2 inputs. 1. Would the folks living around the area accept the Twilight or Evening events? 2. Would the folks arriving find good parking?

[Guest]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

2 inputs. 1. Would the folks living around the area accept the Twilight or Evening events? 2. Would the folks arriving find good parking?

Good points LB. No question those arriving for airshow only may face some parking issues but with some creative thinking I believe it could be addressed. Maybe reserve portions of a few lots for airshow only guests...provide shuttle service, etc. Have to give it some thought.

I'd be in favor of a twilight show instead of night show. Sunset is about 1900 so we're talking about a couple hours difference. It would be one evening only (Fri or Sat). With proper marketing to locals I think it's worth a look.

It's something different and unique to Reno...which is what may be needed to draw locals in during the next 2-3 years without a jet team.

Thanks Bob!

[thunderstangfan]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

2020 was my first year going to Oshkosh, they had the stol drag guys doing take offs and landing competition every night except the night of the evening show. im not sure why they weren't doing the full drag competition but it was still really fun to watch!
then they had the RC guys fly with the neon lights on the planes and it was some of the coolest flying I've ever seen in aviation!
the lights combined with the high G maneuvers that a piloted aircraft can only dream of doing made it very fun to watch. i actually enjoyed the evening stuff at Oshkosh more than the daytime show.
then came the night of the main "night show" they had t-6 aerobatic team. watching a formation team of t-6s with smoke and lights was far superior to them flying during the day!
they had formation flights with aircraft you wouldn't normally see at an airshow. then the model RC guys flew again combined with music and a large fireworks display. it was definitely a highlight of my Oshkosh experience.
in my experience that's where reno is lacking... us crazy racing fans are willing to sit out in the sun and wind all day for the racing but they have never been able to keep anyone around after that last race.
from the racing perspective the big killer of time on the show is the jet teams with all their associated problems, made even worse when they stage out of stead.
so holding the airshow in the evening when it's more comfortable for families with kids and more visually appealing as well might be the better way of attracting aerobatic demos and spectators.

[thunderstangfan]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

this is a one week a year event... you need to start thinking along the lines that its a week long event. not 8-9 "days"!
that means you need to take advantage of time that doesn't interfere with the actual races.
the racing is something that you can only really see in one place in the world! but if you want to claim its a world class airshow as well, you are going to have to step it up because the airshow at reno has really always just been filler between the races.

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I can only speak to my own experience but at least one fast unlimited racer needed that week to practice, test and troubleshoot. It was also the only the time the entire team would be together full time for a long week. Not a day off here or there or getting together after work during a normal week or a weekend occasionally, everyone involved would be there together all day, every day, and sometimes all night. The more I think about it the less I think "Big Time Air Racing" is even possible anymore. I honestly hope someone proves me wrong.

[Guest]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Thanks gents...good stuff.

For Reno it has always been a tough balance between "world's only closed course, seven class, air races" and a "world class aviation event." There are only so many hours in the day (or night).

Nights shows (not twilight) are a different kettle of fish. Far fewer performers to pick from and a certain percentage of them are, at least for Reno, cost prohibitive. They are indeed awesome. Twilight shows migh be a better fit at Reno.

I agree completely...we have to get outside the box a bit and provide additional acts and entertainment. We will never be Oshkosh...just like Oshkosh will never be Reno. Neither should try. Just do what you do. There's a reason McDonalds doesn't sell McSalad Shakers anymore!

One aspect of my "bifurcation" option is airshow doesn't impact or interfere in any way with air racing. Reno is essentially two siblings under one roof...and one is older and bigger than the other. Embrace that. Give the racers their space to do their thing all day long. It's richly deserved.

Move the airshow to its own arena. Exclusivity for both is a good thing I believe. And depending on the year, if you happen to have a jet team (again, that's gravy...NOT meat and potatoes!), they can stage at KRTS, which is far and away their preference. I think 2021 gave us a good gauge on how important jet teams and military performers are to this event. Saturday was a classic day at KRTS. Crankin' winds. And yet...folks hung out to the end of the day to watch the TBirds. Need more evidence?

For virtually everyone who makes this circus tick, Reno is about a 10 day event...not to mention the hundreds of hours spent by many folks in the "off season." That is not going away and its true for every large aviation event. Not complaining...I asked for this!

By giving the airshow component it's own stage, it stands a chance of gaining interest and showcasing what the airshow industry has to offer. It also removes the constant tug of war between air race and airshow during the day. If a race has to be rescheduled, it's an "in house" issue...not related to performers. At Reno, the default position has always been if we're behind schedule to a degree that requires cancelling something, it's always a performer, not a race. In this scenario, not a factor. The race schedule can slide and we'd simply slide the performer time block accordingly.

I can appreciate the number of days provided at Reno are a blessing for some teams. The question is does that blessing outweigh the "curse" of spending 9-10 days, 12-14 hours per day, managing the entirety of the event. My concern here is fatigue. It's a very real thing and should be addressed to ensure the safety of all participants...racing and airshow alike.

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I can appreciate the number of days provided at Reno are a blessing for some teams. The question is does that blessing outweigh the "curse" of spending 9-10 days, 12-14 hours per day, managing the entirety of the event. My concern here is fatigue. It's a very real thing and should be addressed to ensure the safety of all participants...racing and airshow alike.

You can't appreciate what those days provided because you've never actually done it. Maybe nobody wants to race anymore, it was never about money.

[Guest]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

You can't appreciate what those days provided because you've never actually done it. Maybe nobody wants to race anymore, it was never about money.

Who said anything about money? Nor can you ever appreciate what it takes to make sure you and everyone else who races has the KRTS sandbox to play in year in and year out. Now what? It's exactly this type of BS mentality that makes a lot of folks on this forum reluctant to chime in. Spare me the old guard attitude. It does absolutely nothing to further the discussion.

Good for you. You got up every morning and made it happen for this race team or that race team. In your mind that somehow makes whatever contributions you've made of more importance than others. Really? And people wonder why this sport, and this forum, is dying...

If I misunderstood your remark...I'd suggest you make another attempt at it.