Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
Thanks for adding your thoughts, James. To use your word, that helps the purist in my see a bit broader picture.
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
I will not speak for Owen in his absence but for me, the length of the event in total COMBINED with the long days was the driving reason for the question around fatigue. The question was also assigned to all involved: staff, volunteers, etc. and not just to pilots/crews. Hence, the floating of the idea for a shorter week overall and a different structure to the days to help all resources.
In terms of the structure, the split between air race and air show helps with A) preserving an air race focused day, B) creating an airshow block that can be filled each year based on what acts can be secured (i.e. - not being wholly dependent on a jet team to have a successful airshow but easily accommodating them when you do get them,) and C) most importantly, safety. As a retired controller, I can tell you I have witnessed from the stands moments in time that simply do not cut it from my or anyone who takes safety seriously perspectives. Not calling them a failing on anyone's part. Just an overly complex system that enables holes in the cheese. Holes that can be eliminated without losing the spirit of the event and perhaps reclaiming some of it.
In terms of "A," it seems to me that those who lean more to the purist perspective of Reno is about air racing, of which I consider myself one, would appreciate having the time set in stone without having to share the stage. I would personally be fine with no airshow at all as I can secure that fix elsewhere. Unfortunately, while racers can choose to race even if the revenue is not there, event organizers don't have that luxury. I do not think expecting Telling to donate a couple hundred thousand every year is a sustainable business plan. Racing alone will not get it done so an after racing airshow might be just the thing to let the racers be racers but also pay the bills for the event.
While I might wish otherwise as I love the heyday years as much as anyone, Reno is not exempt from the laws of the universe: evolve or die.
JamesLeave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
I think separating the two is a great idea. Move the airshow to somewhere like Oshkosh, and leave the racing in Reno.Leave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
Sorry I'm late to this discussion. I've been coming to Reno since 1988 (from Washington) and do that for the racing. I have certainly seem some great airshow acts, but I would not make the trip just for an airshow. I would for racing. I very much want continued access to air racing for everyone who is interested (racers and fans). If splitting the day as Airboss asked about is the only way to do that, then I'm up for the experiment. But it is not my preference. I also would prefer to not have a bunch of audio and/or video running in between races.
Regarding the comments about fatigue, are there things that have changed that make this more of an issue than it was in the past? Has it always been a problem and we're lucky to have not had something bad happen as a result? I'm genuinely curious whether this is a large factor behind the ideas Airboss has floated, and if so, why.
In my mind, Reno has been distinct for two reasons. First (and obviously) the pylon racing. But also, it is essentially non-stop air action from 8-4 or so. Very much unlike other airshows and racing events (like hydroplane racing, for example).
Airboss, I appreciate your time and commitment to Reno, and to the discussions you have sparked on this forum. I only hope you are "outta here" for a break, not permanently.
DanLeave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
I have no involvement with air racing other than being an avid fan. The reason I've been going since 1999 is for the racing. And wandering through the pits checking out the latest mods on the racers. Couldn't care less about the airshow portions of the event.Leave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
First off, I hope that Airboss will reconsider. I value his posts and perspective here. Running an airshow is no mean feat and I respect it all the more for seeing how the job gets done.
Speaking as a fan I think I'd miss the airshow acts between the race heats. It's true that my MO is usually to cruise the pits and run up to to the K-rail to catch each race on Saturday, all with a weather eye out to see which airshow acts look interesting. Sunday is usually spent in the stands to catch the airshow with forays into the pits. Since the biplane and F-1 Gold races are usually over by then, that's the day to catch the show. There's a lot to do in a weekend and I usually end up missing something I'd like to have seen.
When I can attend for more than the weekend I usually catch the whole airshow on different days over the space of the event. When you've seen the "Wall of fire" A-10 demo four times in a row it gets pretty easy to time your trip for a hot dog. =)
The question of how to get people into the stands is a tough one. I like air racing and I save up pretty much all of my airshow time for Reno so I can get both. Keeping the racing and the aerobatics intermingled seems to me to be the best way to get new people interested in air racing.
That being said, a Saturday evening extravaganza might be a way to bring people to the show in general. Wouldn't have to be separate admission; if you were in during the day you can stay and if you come out for the nightlife, you buy a ticket.Leave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
Bob, in reference to your point about Cleveland, I once heard that the demise of that event wasn't entirely due to Bill Odom's accident in '49. The other factor was that the military aircraft displays demonstrations became unavailable as the services mobilized for war in Korea in '50.Originally posted by Lockheed Bob View Post
So, not only was there a shock to the air racing (Reno suffered this in '01, '11, & '20), but also a big gap in the air show (Owen seems to be trying to manage this for Reno '22 &'23)Leave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
Air Boss (Owen) don't leave this forum as we need all the inputs & then sort it out. Yes Reno Air Races will always be the motto. My input would be one price ticket + pit pass & a Twilight show for those that want to stay & the rest can go to the pits or home. Even at the Cleveland Air Races in the 40's they had performers/military acts between the racing.Leave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
Owen,Originally posted by AAFO_WSagar View Post
Don't go away. I won't beg, but as I said I enjoy your ideas and thoughts.
Wayne, I also use the........to indicate that my thoughts are being expressed.
I have come here to reflect on the history of things as I know them to be. I love the posts I have been having on "before it was Rare Bear" that post has already been the seed for a magazine article.Leave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
Well hell.... here we go again where two members have a pissing contest, I wind up in the middle and, someone leaves...
I guess I should have just left the thread alone and let you guys duke it out and let the chips fall where they may.... in fact, I am going to reinstate the posts I deleted so you all can see what this came from.
Boss, I would hate to see you leave, seriously but I am the BOSS of this site and will run it as I see fit...
We have some pretty ornery crew members who come here and they can be or seem to be a bit abrasive when reading their comments without knowing them and how they are in person... These are very hard working special people who have the dedication to be in the trenches to make the "show" we all enjoy so much. All fans see is a parade of airplanes, a bunch of guys in uniforms (if the team can afford it) what we do not see are the countless hours these guys put in... triumph and disappointment, they are there for the team..
They, as well as the pilots who fly the airplanes are truly a special breed.
Please, everyone, don't let banter between members provoke you into a response such as Owen's that puts the match to the fuel that is there simmering waiting for someone to spark the fire.
Posts going back up, Owen, I will not delete your membership, it causes absolute disorder in the forum when posts are deleted in that way.. Your contributions here are now owned by this website... like it or not.
Play or don't play... not going to alter history by removing everything you've written.
Put on your big boy pants when you play in this forum (message to everyone) if you get your panties in a bundle over something a member says, PM them first before starting a pissing contest..
Posts are back up, you guys remember... written words have no facial expression, tone of voice or any of the other ways we communicate in conversations.. sometimes, you can rub someone the wrong way and not even realize it.
I use the .... after making thoughts and did not realize that ... is an expression with a name and pisses some folks off... who knew?Leave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
That just leavesOriginally posted by Air Boss View Post
"You can't appreciate what those days provided because you've never actually done it."
Which until you have spent 14 days living in a hotel on site, tuning and working out of a trailer you will not get. So don't be offended about that but understand and respect his opinion.
Just like no matter what we will never understand the stress of managing the needs and egos of the performers who don't want to be put out by the racers. I still remember having to do 3 quick turn test flights with the Bearcat on a Sunday fueling in between, while clearing the ramp for the jet car. There are reasons that the Unlimited teams working in their pits can't stand the arrival and performances of the jet teams. Especially the Snowbirds, who actually considered the Unlimited teams as their supporting act.
Even though I can tell you it worth all of it to watch the Thunderbirds in the Phantoms beat the hell out of your senses for the event.Leave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
Owen, I have always enjoyed reading your opinion, however I don't think that you need to try to beat up on someone else that while on the different side of the aisle from you is bringing his reality that is different from your reality. Stop the grandstanding, bring your thoughts and share. I don't see real air racing as viable anymore with the unlimited class. I think that a revitalized Formula 1 Class and the Sport Class is the future maybe an unlimited Sport Class without restrictions on design process, no limits on engine size or development. But racing multimillion dollar warbirds....you are lying to yourself if you don't believe that time has passed. Not on the level it once was so you want a bigger better event real free of Reno's chains that are binding, go somewhere else and start over with none of the small minded little people who are RARA. Otherwise....why bother?Originally posted by Air Boss View Post
I'm not a washed up has been in retrospect I accomplished every goal I wanted to do, and have by request helped out people who were achieving their goals including Stevo.Leave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
Owen,
Assuming you still are browsing this forum (even per your recent thread), I thought I would pose a question that Reno might benefit from - WHY is OSH popular? I've only been to OSH once (2004), but the past few years have watched the livestreams. I'll be the first to say that the "airshow" portion is downright boring. Civilian act after civilian act... not for me. I would assume the real draw is because of the scope of what you can do/see at OSH, mainly because it's the largest aviation event in the country so you don't run out of things to do/see.
I could be wrong, but aside from the never ending to-do list, I would say the major draws are being able to see the award winning warbird restorations - some of which don't even fly in the show, and the "special" one off things that are sometimes planned, and sometimes lucky. Just a few examples of this, B-1 vapor passes at twilight, F-22 low approaches and tearing up the field, etc. Is there any reason that Reno can't mix more of this stuff in or is OSH just lucky with military stuff? Say there is a twilight show, could you plan some military static arrivals in between the end of the day show and before the twilight show? I believe Reno Friday was the fun military arrival day last year with the F-15's doing low approaches along with the rest of the stuff that showed up - that was a BAD ASS evening that not a lot of people got to see. What about Charles Somers bringing the Mosquito and Steve doing a demo with it? We have some incredible planes at NAHI too, can't we have a half hour NAHI session where you get some of those guys up in the air to do some passes? The Firefly and Spitfire doing passes together would've been incredible. Stuff like this is out of the ordinary and gets people thinking "damn I wish I was at Reno I can't believe I missed that". I say that same thing about OSH when I see videos of things that were unplanned that I wish I could've seen in person (the B-1 vapor specifically).
Maybe taking some of the special things that OSH does that normal airshows don't get would be a huge positive - and the people that go to OSH would start to realize that Reno is more than just racing with some planned military and civilian acts - there is random stuff you don't want to miss! You'll never be able to make Reno a "festival" like OSH is, but you can take some pieces of it.Leave a comment:
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Re: Separate Racing from Airshow
In the early years prior to I'd say 1974 The thought was that a sanctioning body could be created that would lift "Air Racing" not necessarily "Reno, the event" to the level of NASCAR. The thought was pursued by several people including my Dad who spent a massive amount of his personal time and money flying around the country going to potential racing sites. In addition to my Dad Bob Love, Leroy Penhall and Clay Lacy spent a lot of time and their own money...(ever notice that except for Gary Levitz all the jets at the first jet race in Mojave owned by Penhall?) The number one antagonist in this time frame was the Reno Air Racing Association. Jerry Duty personally took battle to the NAA Everytime that another event came along so fearing something else would be bigger than their RENO air races. In that aspect it was all about the money and flat out Reno never wanted to pay it. Never fantasize as much as you want, the air races were Denis annual casino draw for a historically slow week. Eventually to become less significant as events with less if a liability window Hot August Nights, The National Rodeo, The balloon races, started increasing casino traffic. Reno never gave a damn about the air races.Originally posted by knot4u View Post
History lesson in 1974 Lyle Shelton and Bob Love met with Jerry Duty Lyle as president of the PRPA and Bob as Vice president of the unlimited class, they told Jerry that if the proposed prize money increase was not in place for that years races then the unlimited class would not attend, they would boycott the event. Jerry Duty personally told these two people that were elected by the group of owners and pilots to represent them that if "he took a five gallon bucket of **** and painted first place on it that they would have a full field." Bob and my Dad went home and announced via class letter that the unlimited class was standing down. The more people who thought this was their chance to win Reno sent in their entries. Reno broke the boycott, Lyle and Bob relented and went to race. Lyle won the Gold race on Sunday, (@ 432 mph) Bob Love came in second by keeping course altitude after an engine failure on the last turn of the last lap until about to pass the home pylon.
The racers landed and Jerry Duty drove up in his car to Ken Burnstine and told him if you file a protest I'll guarantee that you get first place. Ken Burnstine took the bait and filed the protest. The competition committee met and Jerry Duty outlined the reasons for penalizing Lyle and Bob for one lap (which should not have mattered because Lyle and Bob had lapped the entire field!) Lyle for not climbing to 509' during a Mayday, and Bob because Fred Ballet said that Bob had exceeded 1,500 feet at the finish line. History lesson over, the unlimited class in their moment of decision chose "the bucket of ****" it would never be really about the money ever again. The real racers wanted to race, and the filler participants wanted a shiny airplane 12 pit passes and a pretty "bucket" for their trophy cabinet.
Nope, Bill Hickle once told me that Lyle was so distracted by trying to promote other events that he wasn't sure he wanted to race anymore. Bill Hickle crashed his Jeep in the desert in early 1975, Bill Kientz became the Crew Chief for Reno 1975 and the Statler family became the mistake that would end up with the Bearcat laying on it's belly in front of the crowd at Mojave. It would be 1979 when the genesis of the new crew (Bill Noctor and Chris Wood) approached Lyle to buy his airplane, not knowing how much that would cost. It was "CREDIT CARD" Air racing for the next couple of years as Lyle spent, borrowed, and did whatever to go racing. We called it credit card racing because in the Saturday crew meeting in the back of the truck, Lyle told everyone that he had paid all the remaining race week expenses and there was no more money. Several crew members at that point threw their credit cards onto a pile and said "let's do this!" I got picked on by Dave Cornell when he looked at me and said, "Johnny, come on where is your card?" I could only reply that after the crew dinner and yesterday's rave gas I had exceeded my limits..... Lyle paid everyone back and it was not the only time that we went "CREDIT CARD" air racing. But believe me when I say that knot4u understood that this wasn't about the money for our team which was a dominant team EVER again after 1975, It was purely yand all about winning, and more winning. Primarily the focus changed to a non paying event that would cost more than a week in Reno, and pay nothing... August 1989, the single highest moment of elation I ever saw on my Dad's face. 528.329
Money, what is that?Leave a comment:
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