Separate Racing from Airshow

[Air Boss]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

No. I'll decide what I disagree or agree with. You can decide that for yourself as well but you don't know me and you certainly have no reason to think you might tell me what I should think.

I've tried. You're simply no longer worth the effort.

Enjoy your reality.

I'm out....

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

With all due respect, think it was pretty clear that's not what I took issue with...

As we all know, the quickest way to get to one million dollars in this business is to start with two million.

We'll agree to disagree on the rest and leave it at that.

Cheers,

No. I'll decide what I disagree or agree with. You can decide that for yourself as well but you don't know me and you certainly have no reason to think you might tell me what I should think.

[Air Boss]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

What I said is true, it was never about money.

With all due respect, think it was pretty clear that's not what I took issue with...

As we all know, the quickest way to get to one million dollars in this business is to start with two million.

We'll agree to disagree on the rest and leave it at that.

Cheers,

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Think you missed one, Wayne. Comment #14, the genesis of the "tiff" is still up...

What I said is true, it was never about money.

[Air Boss]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Well it is the "Air Races", and racers get airspace priority always (except fire/emergency).
If Mr. USNA Champion has to cut a few minutes from one days routine because the racers showed up in the chute early, then he needs to vacate the area. If that really is an issue, then stipulate that in the contracts.


I do like the idea of all racing in the first block.
That would give the teams the afternoons/evening to prepare their equipment and test fly for the next day.
But that has a different scheduling issue, as on race days there are going to be racers that bump up in class; bronze to silver, ect. Those teams are going to need time between races to service their equipment.

Thanks Lon. Yep, there's a reason the logo for Reno uses a 20 font for "Air Races" and an 8 font for "airshow." ;-)

It's not so much about vacating the area for a performer, it's about deconflicting their recovery to KRTS. For example, if a performer is extended on the "Y" axis (well north of the runway) and he's in a flip-flopper he's not carrying much in the way of fuel he needs to get down quickly. He can't exit the TFR and hold someplace. I completely understand the issue of having performers up during the "gaps" while racers are in a rejoin...it's just not best practice. Does it work, yes. But as with most things just because you can doesn't mean you should. Think there are safer ways to "entertain" during those 6-10 minutes.

Great point about bumping, Lon. So most acts (other than military) are :10-:15. and typically there aren't that many of these performers so I think we could build in some time to allow teams to prep for their bump ups. We could always reconfigure a bit so we have a flip-flopper or two if need be.

This thought is a work in progress and your comments are helpful. Thanks for chimming in!

[Air Boss]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

This thread somehow sparked a bit of a tiff between two valued members.. I have spoken with both and am in process of editing out of thread.

Some of the characters who play out the inside story the drama we get to share here have been around a very long time and have insights to that era that are priceless. Sometimes their delivery, particularly to each other may seem a bit caustic.

We are also very lucky to have very inside the current sport members. I'm extremely proud to have both and determined to continue to make them feel comfortable and welcome.

Think you missed one, Wayne. Comment #14, the genesis of the "tiff" is still up...

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

This thread somehow sparked a bit of a tiff between two valued members.. I have spoken with both and am in process of editing out of thread.

Some of the characters who play out the inside story the drama we get to share here have been around a very long time and have insights to that era that are priceless. Sometimes their delivery, particularly to each other may seem a bit caustic.

We are also very lucky to have very inside the current sport members. I'm extremely proud to have both and determined to continue to make them feel comfortable and welcome.

[Lon Moer]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Well it is the "Air Races", and racers get airspace priority always (except fire/emergency).
If Mr. USNA Champion has to cut a few minutes from one days routine because the racers showed up in the chute early, then he needs to vacate the area. If that really is an issue, then stipulate that in the contracts.


I do like the idea of all racing in the first block.
That would give the teams the afternoons/evening to prepare their equipment and test fly for the next day.
But that has a different scheduling issue, as on race days there are going to be racers that bump up in class; bronze to silver, ect. Those teams are going to need time between races to service their equipment.

[Air Boss]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Perspective from a race pilot.

This is a path we do not want to take. This is the Reno air races not the Reno air show. We barely have enough time in the day to get all the racing done that we want to do. If we shorten up the time for racing that will be the beginning of the end of the Reno air races.
Yes the jet teams bring in additional people which increases revenue but you need to budget for years that do not have them available. If an act gets cut short because we are coming down the chute early than that is just part of racing. He is still getting paid.

Fatigue has always been an issue on events that are long-term such as Oshkosh or Reno. You just deal with it and mitigate the effects by proper planning. My crew and I are at Reno for 10 to 12 days, so by Sunday we are definitely ready to go home but we are adequately rested.

I think a twilight or a night air show would be a very good addition to the event. It is very popular at Oshkosh.

Compared to some of the people on this forum I am a "newbie". I have only been racing since 2006 in sport class and now jet class. But I think I have a pretty good idea of how things operate.

Respectfully

David
Race 8 (sport and jet)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, David.

And to be clear my proposal to separate racing from airshow does not reduce any racing events. The reason we are up against the clock with racing is that we are constantly trying to mash up racing with airshow. By removing all airshow acts from the first "block" (0800 - 1500) we remove the pressure on the racing side of the house. There's no reduction in the number of quals (no factor really as those are completed long before the airshow performers event show up), heats (Wed - Sat) or races (Sun).

As for cutting an act short, that's a safety of flight issue more than anything else. I can count on less than one hand I had to tell a performer to cut his/her act short in the airshow world. It just doesn't happen. At Reno, it's expected. And that's not best practice. Especially for sanctioned/sponsored acts. It also bcan become a contractual issue.

As for jet teams yeah, despite the demands on logistics, hotels, rental cars, etc., they do help the bottom line. But given the dynamics at Reno, perhaps it's time to reconfigure the event in such a way that they don't represent the tent pole. We have an opportunity in 2022 and 2023 to rethink this thing to some degree.

While I'd argue we could remove one day from the schedule without significant impact, the better approach is to shorten the work day for the racers. Not by reducing the number of heats or races...but by making them the centerpiece of each day from 0800 - 1500 without interuption from performers.

Really appreciate the constructive feedback fellas. Always welcomed...

[Race 8]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Perspective from a race pilot.

This is a path we do not want to take. This is the Reno air races not the Reno air show. We barely have enough time in the day to get all the racing done that we want to do. If we shorten up the time for racing that will be the beginning of the end of the Reno air races.
Yes the jet teams bring in additional people which increases revenue but you need to budget for years that do not have them available. If an act gets cut short because we are coming down the chute early than that is just part of racing. He is still getting paid.

Fatigue has always been an issue on events that are long-term such as Oshkosh or Reno. You just deal with it and mitigate the effects by proper planning. My crew and I are at Reno for 10 to 12 days, so by Sunday we are definitely ready to go home but we are adequately rested.

I think a twilight or a night air show would be a very good addition to the event. It is very popular at Oshkosh.

Compared to some of the people on this forum I am a "newbie". I have only been racing since 2006 in sport class and now jet class. But I think I have a pretty good idea of how things operate.

Respectfully

David
Race 8 (sport and jet)

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Who said anything about money? Nor can you ever appreciate what it takes to make sure you and everyone else who races has the KRTS sandbox to play in year in and year out. Now what? It's exactly this type of BS mentality that makes a lot of folks on this forum reluctant to chime in. Spare me the old guard attitude. It does absolutely nothing to further the discussion.

Good for you. You got up every morning and made it happen for this race team or that race team. In your mind that somehow makes whatever contributions you've made of more importance than others. Really? And people wonder why this sport, and this forum, is dying...

If I misunderstood your remark...I'd suggest you make another attempt at it.

Okay.

[Air Boss]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

You can't appreciate what those days provided because you've never actually done it. Maybe nobody wants to race anymore, it was never about money.

Who said anything about money? Nor can you ever appreciate what it takes to make sure you and everyone else who races has the KRTS sandbox to play in year in and year out. Now what? It's exactly this type of BS mentality that makes a lot of folks on this forum reluctant to chime in. Spare me the old guard attitude. It does absolutely nothing to further the discussion.

Good for you. You got up every morning and made it happen for this race team or that race team. In your mind that somehow makes whatever contributions you've made of more importance than others. Really? And people wonder why this sport, and this forum, is dying...

If I misunderstood your remark...I'd suggest you make another attempt at it.

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I can appreciate the number of days provided at Reno are a blessing for some teams. The question is does that blessing outweigh the "curse" of spending 9-10 days, 12-14 hours per day, managing the entirety of the event. My concern here is fatigue. It's a very real thing and should be addressed to ensure the safety of all participants...racing and airshow alike.

You can't appreciate what those days provided because you've never actually done it. Maybe nobody wants to race anymore, it was never about money.

[Air Boss]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Thanks gents...good stuff.

For Reno it has always been a tough balance between "world's only closed course, seven class, air races" and a "world class aviation event." There are only so many hours in the day (or night).

Nights shows (not twilight) are a different kettle of fish. Far fewer performers to pick from and a certain percentage of them are, at least for Reno, cost prohibitive. They are indeed awesome. Twilight shows migh be a better fit at Reno.

I agree completely...we have to get outside the box a bit and provide additional acts and entertainment. We will never be Oshkosh...just like Oshkosh will never be Reno. Neither should try. Just do what you do. There's a reason McDonalds doesn't sell McSalad Shakers anymore!

One aspect of my "bifurcation" option is airshow doesn't impact or interfere in any way with air racing. Reno is essentially two siblings under one roof...and one is older and bigger than the other. Embrace that. Give the racers their space to do their thing all day long. It's richly deserved.

Move the airshow to its own arena. Exclusivity for both is a good thing I believe. And depending on the year, if you happen to have a jet team (again, that's gravy...NOT meat and potatoes!), they can stage at KRTS, which is far and away their preference. I think 2021 gave us a good gauge on how important jet teams and military performers are to this event. Saturday was a classic day at KRTS. Crankin' winds. And yet...folks hung out to the end of the day to watch the TBirds. Need more evidence?

For virtually everyone who makes this circus tick, Reno is about a 10 day event...not to mention the hundreds of hours spent by many folks in the "off season." That is not going away and its true for every large aviation event. Not complaining...I asked for this!

By giving the airshow component it's own stage, it stands a chance of gaining interest and showcasing what the airshow industry has to offer. It also removes the constant tug of war between air race and airshow during the day. If a race has to be rescheduled, it's an "in house" issue...not related to performers. At Reno, the default position has always been if we're behind schedule to a degree that requires cancelling something, it's always a performer, not a race. In this scenario, not a factor. The race schedule can slide and we'd simply slide the performer time block accordingly.

I can appreciate the number of days provided at Reno are a blessing for some teams. The question is does that blessing outweigh the "curse" of spending 9-10 days, 12-14 hours per day, managing the entirety of the event. My concern here is fatigue. It's a very real thing and should be addressed to ensure the safety of all participants...racing and airshow alike.

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I can only speak to my own experience but at least one fast unlimited racer needed that week to practice, test and troubleshoot. It was also the only the time the entire team would be together full time for a long week. Not a day off here or there or getting together after work during a normal week or a weekend occasionally, everyone involved would be there together all day, every day, and sometimes all night. The more I think about it the less I think "Big Time Air Racing" is even possible anymore. I honestly hope someone proves me wrong.