Separate Racing from Airshow

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Who said anything about money? Nor can you ever appreciate what it takes to make sure you and everyone else who races has the KRTS sandbox to play in year in and year out. Now what? It's exactly this type of BS mentality that makes a lot of folks on this forum reluctant to chime in. Spare me the old guard attitude. It does absolutely nothing to further the discussion.

Good for you. You got up every morning and made it happen for this race team or that race team. In your mind that somehow makes whatever contributions you've made of more importance than others. Really? And people wonder why this sport, and this forum, is dying...

If I misunderstood your remark...I'd suggest you make another attempt at it.

Okay.

[Race 8]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Perspective from a race pilot.

This is a path we do not want to take. This is the Reno air races not the Reno air show. We barely have enough time in the day to get all the racing done that we want to do. If we shorten up the time for racing that will be the beginning of the end of the Reno air races.
Yes the jet teams bring in additional people which increases revenue but you need to budget for years that do not have them available. If an act gets cut short because we are coming down the chute early than that is just part of racing. He is still getting paid.

Fatigue has always been an issue on events that are long-term such as Oshkosh or Reno. You just deal with it and mitigate the effects by proper planning. My crew and I are at Reno for 10 to 12 days, so by Sunday we are definitely ready to go home but we are adequately rested.

I think a twilight or a night air show would be a very good addition to the event. It is very popular at Oshkosh.

Compared to some of the people on this forum I am a "newbie". I have only been racing since 2006 in sport class and now jet class. But I think I have a pretty good idea of how things operate.

Respectfully

David
Race 8 (sport and jet)

[Guest]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Perspective from a race pilot.

This is a path we do not want to take. This is the Reno air races not the Reno air show. We barely have enough time in the day to get all the racing done that we want to do. If we shorten up the time for racing that will be the beginning of the end of the Reno air races.
Yes the jet teams bring in additional people which increases revenue but you need to budget for years that do not have them available. If an act gets cut short because we are coming down the chute early than that is just part of racing. He is still getting paid.

Fatigue has always been an issue on events that are long-term such as Oshkosh or Reno. You just deal with it and mitigate the effects by proper planning. My crew and I are at Reno for 10 to 12 days, so by Sunday we are definitely ready to go home but we are adequately rested.

I think a twilight or a night air show would be a very good addition to the event. It is very popular at Oshkosh.

Compared to some of the people on this forum I am a "newbie". I have only been racing since 2006 in sport class and now jet class. But I think I have a pretty good idea of how things operate.

Respectfully

David
Race 8 (sport and jet)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, David.

And to be clear my proposal to separate racing from airshow does not reduce any racing events. The reason we are up against the clock with racing is that we are constantly trying to mash up racing with airshow. By removing all airshow acts from the first "block" (0800 - 1500) we remove the pressure on the racing side of the house. There's no reduction in the number of quals (no factor really as those are completed long before the airshow performers event show up), heats (Wed - Sat) or races (Sun).

As for cutting an act short, that's a safety of flight issue more than anything else. I can count on less than one hand I had to tell a performer to cut his/her act short in the airshow world. It just doesn't happen. At Reno, it's expected. And that's not best practice. Especially for sanctioned/sponsored acts. It also bcan become a contractual issue.

As for jet teams yeah, despite the demands on logistics, hotels, rental cars, etc., they do help the bottom line. But given the dynamics at Reno, perhaps it's time to reconfigure the event in such a way that they don't represent the tent pole. We have an opportunity in 2022 and 2023 to rethink this thing to some degree.

While I'd argue we could remove one day from the schedule without significant impact, the better approach is to shorten the work day for the racers. Not by reducing the number of heats or races...but by making them the centerpiece of each day from 0800 - 1500 without interuption from performers.

Really appreciate the constructive feedback fellas. Always welcomed...

[Lon Moer]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Well it is the "Air Races", and racers get airspace priority always (except fire/emergency).
If Mr. USNA Champion has to cut a few minutes from one days routine because the racers showed up in the chute early, then he needs to vacate the area. If that really is an issue, then stipulate that in the contracts.


I do like the idea of all racing in the first block.
That would give the teams the afternoons/evening to prepare their equipment and test fly for the next day.
But that has a different scheduling issue, as on race days there are going to be racers that bump up in class; bronze to silver, ect. Those teams are going to need time between races to service their equipment.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

This thread somehow sparked a bit of a tiff between two valued members.. I have spoken with both and am in process of editing out of thread.

Some of the characters who play out the inside story the drama we get to share here have been around a very long time and have insights to that era that are priceless. Sometimes their delivery, particularly to each other may seem a bit caustic.

We are also very lucky to have very inside the current sport members. I'm extremely proud to have both and determined to continue to make them feel comfortable and welcome.

[Guest]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

This thread somehow sparked a bit of a tiff between two valued members.. I have spoken with both and am in process of editing out of thread.

Some of the characters who play out the inside story the drama we get to share here have been around a very long time and have insights to that era that are priceless. Sometimes their delivery, particularly to each other may seem a bit caustic.

We are also very lucky to have very inside the current sport members. I'm extremely proud to have both and determined to continue to make them feel comfortable and welcome.

Think you missed one, Wayne. Comment #14, the genesis of the "tiff" is still up...

[Guest]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Well it is the "Air Races", and racers get airspace priority always (except fire/emergency).
If Mr. USNA Champion has to cut a few minutes from one days routine because the racers showed up in the chute early, then he needs to vacate the area. If that really is an issue, then stipulate that in the contracts.


I do like the idea of all racing in the first block.
That would give the teams the afternoons/evening to prepare their equipment and test fly for the next day.
But that has a different scheduling issue, as on race days there are going to be racers that bump up in class; bronze to silver, ect. Those teams are going to need time between races to service their equipment.

Thanks Lon. Yep, there's a reason the logo for Reno uses a 20 font for "Air Races" and an 8 font for "airshow." ;-)

It's not so much about vacating the area for a performer, it's about deconflicting their recovery to KRTS. For example, if a performer is extended on the "Y" axis (well north of the runway) and he's in a flip-flopper he's not carrying much in the way of fuel he needs to get down quickly. He can't exit the TFR and hold someplace. I completely understand the issue of having performers up during the "gaps" while racers are in a rejoin...it's just not best practice. Does it work, yes. But as with most things just because you can doesn't mean you should. Think there are safer ways to "entertain" during those 6-10 minutes.

Great point about bumping, Lon. So most acts (other than military) are :10-:15. and typically there aren't that many of these performers so I think we could build in some time to allow teams to prep for their bump ups. We could always reconfigure a bit so we have a flip-flopper or two if need be.

This thought is a work in progress and your comments are helpful. Thanks for chimming in!

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Think you missed one, Wayne. Comment #14, the genesis of the "tiff" is still up...

What I said is true, it was never about money.

[Guest]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

What I said is true, it was never about money.

With all due respect, think it was pretty clear that's not what I took issue with...

As we all know, the quickest way to get to one million dollars in this business is to start with two million.

We'll agree to disagree on the rest and leave it at that.

Cheers,

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

With all due respect, think it was pretty clear that's not what I took issue with...

As we all know, the quickest way to get to one million dollars in this business is to start with two million.

We'll agree to disagree on the rest and leave it at that.

Cheers,

No. I'll decide what I disagree or agree with. You can decide that for yourself as well but you don't know me and you certainly have no reason to think you might tell me what I should think.

[Guest]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

No. I'll decide what I disagree or agree with. You can decide that for yourself as well but you don't know me and you certainly have no reason to think you might tell me what I should think.

I've tried. You're simply no longer worth the effort.

Enjoy your reality.

I'm out....

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

You can't appreciate what those days provided because you've never actually done it. Maybe nobody wants to race anymore, it was never about money.

In the early years prior to I'd say 1974 The thought was that a sanctioning body could be created that would lift "Air Racing" not necessarily "Reno, the event" to the level of NASCAR. The thought was pursued by several people including my Dad who spent a massive amount of his personal time and money flying around the country going to potential racing sites. In addition to my Dad Bob Love, Leroy Penhall and Clay Lacy spent a lot of time and their own money...(ever notice that except for Gary Levitz all the jets at the first jet race in Mojave owned by Penhall?) The number one antagonist in this time frame was the Reno Air Racing Association. Jerry Duty personally took battle to the NAA Everytime that another event came along so fearing something else would be bigger than their RENO air races. In that aspect it was all about the money and flat out Reno never wanted to pay it. Never fantasize as much as you want, the air races were Denis annual casino draw for a historically slow week. Eventually to become less significant as events with less if a liability window Hot August Nights, The National Rodeo, The balloon races, started increasing casino traffic. Reno never gave a damn about the air races.

History lesson in 1974 Lyle Shelton and Bob Love met with Jerry Duty Lyle as president of the PRPA and Bob as Vice president of the unlimited class, they told Jerry that if the proposed prize money increase was not in place for that years races then the unlimited class would not attend, they would boycott the event. Jerry Duty personally told these two people that were elected by the group of owners and pilots to represent them that if "he took a five gallon bucket of **** and painted first place on it that they would have a full field." Bob and my Dad went home and announced via class letter that the unlimited class was standing down. The more people who thought this was their chance to win Reno sent in their entries. Reno broke the boycott, Lyle and Bob relented and went to race. Lyle won the Gold race on Sunday, (@ 432 mph) Bob Love came in second by keeping course altitude after an engine failure on the last turn of the last lap until about to pass the home pylon.

The racers landed and Jerry Duty drove up in his car to Ken Burnstine and told him if you file a protest I'll guarantee that you get first place. Ken Burnstine took the bait and filed the protest. The competition committee met and Jerry Duty outlined the reasons for penalizing Lyle and Bob for one lap (which should not have mattered because Lyle and Bob had lapped the entire field!) Lyle for not climbing to 509' during a Mayday, and Bob because Fred Ballet said that Bob had exceeded 1,500 feet at the finish line. History lesson over, the unlimited class in their moment of decision chose "the bucket of ****" it would never be really about the money ever again. The real racers wanted to race, and the filler participants wanted a shiny airplane 12 pit passes and a pretty "bucket" for their trophy cabinet.

Nope, Bill Hickle once told me that Lyle was so distracted by trying to promote other events that he wasn't sure he wanted to race anymore. Bill Hickle crashed his Jeep in the desert in early 1975, Bill Kientz became the Crew Chief for Reno 1975 and the Statler family became the mistake that would end up with the Bearcat laying on it's belly in front of the crowd at Mojave. It would be 1979 when the genesis of the new crew (Bill Noctor and Chris Wood) approached Lyle to buy his airplane, not knowing how much that would cost. It was "CREDIT CARD" Air racing for the next couple of years as Lyle spent, borrowed, and did whatever to go racing. We called it credit card racing because in the Saturday crew meeting in the back of the truck, Lyle told everyone that he had paid all the remaining race week expenses and there was no more money. Several crew members at that point threw their credit cards onto a pile and said "let's do this!" I got picked on by Dave Cornell when he looked at me and said, "Johnny, come on where is your card?" I could only reply that after the crew dinner and yesterday's rave gas I had exceeded my limits..... Lyle paid everyone back and it was not the only time that we went "CREDIT CARD" air racing. But believe me when I say that knot4u understood that this wasn't about the money for our team which was a dominant team EVER again after 1975, It was purely yand all about winning, and more winning. Primarily the focus changed to a non paying event that would cost more than a week in Reno, and pay nothing... August 1989, the single highest moment of elation I ever saw on my Dad's face. 528.329
Money, what is that?

[GRNDP51]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Owen,

Assuming you still are browsing this forum (even per your recent thread), I thought I would pose a question that Reno might benefit from - WHY is OSH popular? I've only been to OSH once (2004), but the past few years have watched the livestreams. I'll be the first to say that the "airshow" portion is downright boring. Civilian act after civilian act... not for me. I would assume the real draw is because of the scope of what you can do/see at OSH, mainly because it's the largest aviation event in the country so you don't run out of things to do/see.

I could be wrong, but aside from the never ending to-do list, I would say the major draws are being able to see the award winning warbird restorations - some of which don't even fly in the show, and the "special" one off things that are sometimes planned, and sometimes lucky. Just a few examples of this, B-1 vapor passes at twilight, F-22 low approaches and tearing up the field, etc. Is there any reason that Reno can't mix more of this stuff in or is OSH just lucky with military stuff? Say there is a twilight show, could you plan some military static arrivals in between the end of the day show and before the twilight show? I believe Reno Friday was the fun military arrival day last year with the F-15's doing low approaches along with the rest of the stuff that showed up - that was a BAD ASS evening that not a lot of people got to see. What about Charles Somers bringing the Mosquito and Steve doing a demo with it? We have some incredible planes at NAHI too, can't we have a half hour NAHI session where you get some of those guys up in the air to do some passes? The Firefly and Spitfire doing passes together would've been incredible. Stuff like this is out of the ordinary and gets people thinking "damn I wish I was at Reno I can't believe I missed that". I say that same thing about OSH when I see videos of things that were unplanned that I wish I could've seen in person (the B-1 vapor specifically).

Maybe taking some of the special things that OSH does that normal airshows don't get would be a huge positive - and the people that go to OSH would start to realize that Reno is more than just racing with some planned military and civilian acts - there is random stuff you don't want to miss! You'll never be able to make Reno a "festival" like OSH is, but you can take some pieces of it.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I've tried. You're simply no longer worth the effort.

Enjoy your reality.

I'm out....

Owen, I have always enjoyed reading your opinion, however I don't think that you need to try to beat up on someone else that while on the different side of the aisle from you is bringing his reality that is different from your reality. Stop the grandstanding, bring your thoughts and share. I don't see real air racing as viable anymore with the unlimited class. I think that a revitalized Formula 1 Class and the Sport Class is the future maybe an unlimited Sport Class without restrictions on design process, no limits on engine size or development. But racing multimillion dollar warbirds....you are lying to yourself if you don't believe that time has passed. Not on the level it once was so you want a bigger better event real free of Reno's chains that are binding, go somewhere else and start over with none of the small minded little people who are RARA. Otherwise....why bother?

I'm not a washed up has been in retrospect I accomplished every goal I wanted to do, and have by request helped out people who were achieving their goals including Stevo.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

With all due respect, think it was pretty clear that's not what I took issue with...

As we all know, the quickest way to get to one million dollars in this business is to start with two million.

We'll agree to disagree on the rest and leave it at that.

Cheers,

That just leaves

"You can't appreciate what those days provided because you've never actually done it."

Which until you have spent 14 days living in a hotel on site, tuning and working out of a trailer you will not get. So don't be offended about that but understand and respect his opinion.

Just like no matter what we will never understand the stress of managing the needs and egos of the performers who don't want to be put out by the racers. I still remember having to do 3 quick turn test flights with the Bearcat on a Sunday fueling in between, while clearing the ramp for the jet car. There are reasons that the Unlimited teams working in their pits can't stand the arrival and performances of the jet teams. Especially the Snowbirds, who actually considered the Unlimited teams as their supporting act.

Even though I can tell you it worth all of it to watch the Thunderbirds in the Phantoms beat the hell out of your senses for the event.