Separate Racing from Airshow

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Well hell.... here we go again where two members have a pissing contest, I wind up in the middle and, someone leaves...

I guess I should have just left the thread alone and let you guys duke it out and let the chips fall where they may.... in fact, I am going to reinstate the posts I deleted so you all can see what this came from.

Boss, I would hate to see you leave, seriously but I am the BOSS of this site and will run it as I see fit...

We have some pretty ornery crew members who come here and they can be or seem to be a bit abrasive when reading their comments without knowing them and how they are in person... These are very hard working special people who have the dedication to be in the trenches to make the "show" we all enjoy so much. All fans see is a parade of airplanes, a bunch of guys in uniforms (if the team can afford it) what we do not see are the countless hours these guys put in... triumph and disappointment, they are there for the team..

They, as well as the pilots who fly the airplanes are truly a special breed.

Please, everyone, don't let banter between members provoke you into a response such as Owen's that puts the match to the fuel that is there simmering waiting for someone to spark the fire.

Posts going back up, Owen, I will not delete your membership, it causes absolute disorder in the forum when posts are deleted in that way.. Your contributions here are now owned by this website... like it or not.

Play or don't play... not going to alter history by removing everything you've written.

Put on your big boy pants when you play in this forum (message to everyone) if you get your panties in a bundle over something a member says, PM them first before starting a pissing contest..

Posts are back up, you guys remember... written words have no facial expression, tone of voice or any of the other ways we communicate in conversations.. sometimes, you can rub someone the wrong way and not even realize it.

I use the .... after making thoughts and did not realize that ... is an expression with a name and pisses some folks off... who knew?

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Well hell.... here we go again where two members have a pissing contest, I wind up in the middle and, someone leaves...

I guess I should have just left the thread alone and let you guys duke it out and let the chips fall where they may.... in fact, I am going to reinstate the posts I deleted so you all can see what this came from.

Boss, I would hate to see you leave, seriously but I am the BOSS of this site and will run it as I see fit...

We have some pretty ornery crew members who come here and they can be or seem to be a bit abrasive when reading their comments without knowing them and how they are in person... These are very hard working special people who have the dedication to be in the trenches to make the "show" we all enjoy so much. All fans see is a parade of airplanes, a bunch of guys in uniforms (if the team can afford it) what we do not see are the countless hours these guys put in... triumph and disappointment, they are there for the team..

They, as well as the pilots who fly the airplanes are truly a special breed.

Please, everyone, don't let banter between members provoke you into a response such as Owen's that puts the match to the fuel that is there simmering waiting for someone to spark the fire.

Posts going back up, Owen, I will not delete your membership, it causes absolute disorder in the forum when posts are deleted in that way.. Your contributions here are now owned by this website... like it or not.

Play or don't play... not going to alter history by removing everything you've written.

Put on your big boy pants when you play in this forum (message to everyone) if you get your panties in a bundle over something a member says, PM them first before starting a pissing contest..

Posts are back up, you guys remember... written words have no facial expression, tone of voice or any of the other ways we communicate in conversations.. sometimes, you can rub someone the wrong way and not even realize it.

I use the .... after making thoughts and did not realize that ... is an expression with a name and pisses some folks off... who knew?

Owen,
Don't go away. I won't beg, but as I said I enjoy your ideas and thoughts.

Wayne, I also use the........to indicate that my thoughts are being expressed.

I have come here to reflect on the history of things as I know them to be. I love the posts I have been having on "before it was Rare Bear" that post has already been the seed for a magazine article.

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Air Boss (Owen) don't leave this forum as we need all the inputs & then sort it out. Yes Reno Air Races will always be the motto. My input would be one price ticket + pit pass & a Twilight show for those that want to stay & the rest can go to the pits or home. Even at the Cleveland Air Races in the 40's they had performers/military acts between the racing.

[N22252]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Air Boss (Owen) don't leave this forum as we need all the inputs & then sort it out. Yes Reno Air Races will always be the motto. My input would be one price ticket + pit pass & a Twilight show for those that want to stay & the rest can go to the pits or home. Even at the Cleveland Air Races in the 40's they had performers/military acts between the racing.

Bob, in reference to your point about Cleveland, I once heard that the demise of that event wasn't entirely due to Bill Odom's accident in '49. The other factor was that the military aircraft displays demonstrations became unavailable as the services mobilized for war in Korea in '50.

So, not only was there a shock to the air racing (Reno suffered this in '01, '11, & '20), but also a big gap in the air show (Owen seems to be trying to manage this for Reno '22 &'23)

[L.E.D.]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

First off, I hope that Airboss will reconsider. I value his posts and perspective here. Running an airshow is no mean feat and I respect it all the more for seeing how the job gets done.

Speaking as a fan I think I'd miss the airshow acts between the race heats. It's true that my MO is usually to cruise the pits and run up to to the K-rail to catch each race on Saturday, all with a weather eye out to see which airshow acts look interesting. Sunday is usually spent in the stands to catch the airshow with forays into the pits. Since the biplane and F-1 Gold races are usually over by then, that's the day to catch the show. There's a lot to do in a weekend and I usually end up missing something I'd like to have seen.

When I can attend for more than the weekend I usually catch the whole airshow on different days over the space of the event. When you've seen the "Wall of fire" A-10 demo four times in a row it gets pretty easy to time your trip for a hot dog. =)

The question of how to get people into the stands is a tough one. I like air racing and I save up pretty much all of my airshow time for Reno so I can get both. Keeping the racing and the aerobatics intermingled seems to me to be the best way to get new people interested in air racing.

That being said, a Saturday evening extravaganza might be a way to bring people to the show in general. Wouldn't have to be separate admission; if you were in during the day you can stay and if you come out for the nightlife, you buy a ticket.

[cragdweller]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I have no involvement with air racing other than being an avid fan. The reason I've been going since 1999 is for the racing. And wandering through the pits checking out the latest mods on the racers. Couldn't care less about the airshow portions of the event.

[Coug86]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Sorry I'm late to this discussion. I've been coming to Reno since 1988 (from Washington) and do that for the racing. I have certainly seem some great airshow acts, but I would not make the trip just for an airshow. I would for racing. I very much want continued access to air racing for everyone who is interested (racers and fans). If splitting the day as Airboss asked about is the only way to do that, then I'm up for the experiment. But it is not my preference. I also would prefer to not have a bunch of audio and/or video running in between races.

Regarding the comments about fatigue, are there things that have changed that make this more of an issue than it was in the past? Has it always been a problem and we're lucky to have not had something bad happen as a result? I'm genuinely curious whether this is a large factor behind the ideas Airboss has floated, and if so, why.

In my mind, Reno has been distinct for two reasons. First (and obviously) the pylon racing. But also, it is essentially non-stop air action from 8-4 or so. Very much unlike other airshows and racing events (like hydroplane racing, for example).

Airboss, I appreciate your time and commitment to Reno, and to the discussions you have sparked on this forum. I only hope you are "outta here" for a break, not permanently.

Dan

[Race5]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I think separating the two is a great idea. Move the airshow to somewhere like Oshkosh, and leave the racing in Reno.

[ZacYates]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Regarding the comments about fatigue, are there things that have changed that make this more of an issue than it was in the past? Has it always been a problem and we're lucky to have not had something bad happen as a result? I'm genuinely curious whether this is a large factor behind the ideas Airboss has floated, and if so, why.

That's been on my mind throughout this discussion too. The event has been run for quite a while - what's changed to prompt this?

I'm genuinely curious rather than trying to poke a hornet's nest.

[Fawkes]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I will not speak for Owen in his absence but for me, the length of the event in total COMBINED with the long days was the driving reason for the question around fatigue. The question was also assigned to all involved: staff, volunteers, etc. and not just to pilots/crews. Hence, the floating of the idea for a shorter week overall and a different structure to the days to help all resources.

In terms of the structure, the split between air race and air show helps with A) preserving an air race focused day, B) creating an airshow block that can be filled each year based on what acts can be secured (i.e. - not being wholly dependent on a jet team to have a successful airshow but easily accommodating them when you do get them,) and C) most importantly, safety. As a retired controller, I can tell you I have witnessed from the stands moments in time that simply do not cut it from my or anyone who takes safety seriously perspectives. Not calling them a failing on anyone's part. Just an overly complex system that enables holes in the cheese. Holes that can be eliminated without losing the spirit of the event and perhaps reclaiming some of it.

In terms of "A," it seems to me that those who lean more to the purist perspective of Reno is about air racing, of which I consider myself one, would appreciate having the time set in stone without having to share the stage. I would personally be fine with no airshow at all as I can secure that fix elsewhere. Unfortunately, while racers can choose to race even if the revenue is not there, event organizers don't have that luxury. I do not think expecting Telling to donate a couple hundred thousand every year is a sustainable business plan. Racing alone will not get it done so an after racing airshow might be just the thing to let the racers be racers but also pay the bills for the event.

While I might wish otherwise as I love the heyday years as much as anyone, Reno is not exempt from the laws of the universe: evolve or die.

James

[Coug86]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Thanks for adding your thoughts, James. To use your word, that helps the purist in my see a bit broader picture.

[knot4u]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I'll post my thoughts on this and then bow out of this conversation. The fast Unlimiteds aren't coming back (it actually hurts me to write that). It's just not worth it and the guys with the big egos and the balls that built those airplanes for one race a year just to prove they were faster are either gone or standing down, it got so big that it's just not possible anymore. The future of the sport regarding innovation and exciting racing as the premier event at Reno is going to be the Sport class. I hope it continues. I suspect I offended Owen. I hope he stays, I told Wayne that Owen and I were probably climbing the same mountain from opposite sides. I still think it's called The Reno National Championsip Air Races for a reason.

[Coug86]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

Agreed. It has seemed to me, as a longtime fan but with no "insider knowledge", that the fast Unlimiteds are gone. I think the Sport class is and has been very exciting and is a huge draw for me. It appeals to me as an engineer and as an aviation/racing fan. I also really enjoy the Formula 1 and Biplane classes. And the STOL drags are a family favorite for us. I am enjoying the evolution of the air races.

This thread started with a "what would you think about..." question. My answer is, I like the day-long mix of racing and airshow. But I'm open to other options, and it appears that there are good reasons to try different daily formats. So be it. As long as the racing happens, I'll be there, with friends and family (including grandson) in tow.

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

I'll post my thoughts on this and then bow out of this conversation. The fast Unlimiteds aren't coming back (it actually hurts me to write that). It's just not worth it and the guys with the big egos and the balls that built those airplanes for one race a year just to prove they were faster are either gone or standing down, it got so big that it's just not possible anymore. The future of the sport regarding innovation and exciting racing as the premier event at Reno is going to be the Sport class. I hope it continues. I suspect I offended Owen. I hope he stays, I told Wayne that Owen and I were probably climbing the same mountain from opposite sides. I still think it's called The Reno National Championsip Air Races for a reason.

You say the fast unlimiteds aren't coming back. Okay, what about the Tsunami rebuild? Johnny is 100% going to race it if there are races to race. Then there is the Shockwave project. Both of those will be 480+ racers. There is also another project that is pretty bold. I can't say who is doing it, or what is being built, but if successful, will change the Unlimited class in a very big way. The paraphrased quote on that project from the owner is "It Better be faster than Shockwave" We have already seen one top Sport class racer move from Sport to Unlimited, there are others interested, and knowing their current levels of sponsorship, its not out of their grasp to build a fast Unlimited. Tiger has said that if someone shows up worth racing, Strega will be back. Well, I just gave you three examples of racers that will give Strega a run for its money. Granted, it will be 5+ years for any of those 3 to make an appearance, but its a little premature to write the Unlimiteds off. There is also the Yak project from Redding that is a wildcard at this point, but when its done, should be a 450+ racer. In the end, who needs Strega, Rare Bear and Voodoo really? Yep they are fast, nope they aren't racing for whatever reason. Do you need to go 490+ or can you have an awesome race where the top speed is 450? 430? Is it really about how fast they are going, or can you have some awesome racing at 430? Looking at the results over the past 40 years, there have been many awesome races with a top speed of around 440, so clearly the ability to run 490 is not what makes for an awesome year of racing.

Lets be honest, you can't split the races and the airshow from each other. They have a symbiotic relationship. You take the racing away from the airshow, and you lose the crowd there for the other part. I think an evening airshow with some night runs, and other interesting stuff (tethered hot air balloons doing rides at night? If nothing else, it would be cool to see. Perhaps a slideshow on a building, more warbird rides, night aerobatic acts without fireworks.) could be a big draw. Get a jet truck out there doing runs in afterburner down the ramp. Military jets blasting around at twilight in full afterburner, that is always a memorable experience. (Get a B1 to blast out in full burner, I'd love to see that again.)

The races can't be any shorter either. There simply isn't time. Yeah its a long week for everyone, but when you have a racer that just doesn't want to work right, every hour that can be spent to find and fix the issue is used. Take it out, test it, okay seems to be better, lets go fly it. Fly it, nope still not right, plane comes apart, people work late into the night, out to the ramp for a power run, nope, not happy back to the pit. That can be and has been the story for many teams over the years. They need the time to get things right. The guys who have everything go smoothly from start to finish, are lucky. Good for them, but that isn't how racing goes most of the time. 3 days of qualifying are needed, then some early racing by Thursday to get things rolling. Seriously, look at any major motorsports race. Its a week long deal to race on Sunday. IF1, Indy cars, WRC, heck, even vintage racing. I was one of those teams that needed all week to get the car right at the Rolex Monterey Historics in 2018. When I wasn't on the track, I was trying to figure out why the car wasn't working right, till WAY late at night. (It took me another year to figure out what the issue was, and it stumped all the really knowledgeable people as well.) From a spectator standpoint, this is sometimes tough to grasp. Okay, the plane doesn't work, stand down and enjoy the show. The trouble is, as a competitor, you can't just stand down and enjoy the show. You spent days, weeks, years getting your racer ready to run, you were accepted, you made it there and it kills you to not be able to go run at your best. So you end up spending every moment you can trying to get it right so that on Sunday, you can go out and run your best.

The races evolved the way they did for a reason. The people racing need all week to get things just right. The races need filler between races so as to keep people interested. (Lets face it, people don't have the greatest attention span when nothing is going on.) The airshow is the filler. This is also why the Volvo precision driving group, car drops, jet car/truck ect work well. They aren't using airspace when the racers come down the chute. They do their thing, racers take the course, and by the time the start lap is ending, those ground based filler bits are clear and out of the way, and spectators attention is back on the racers coming around pylon 8 onto the front straight. Mixing military demos in can break up some of the racing just for a quick change of pace.

In the end, you can have the most well done race week in history, but if no one knows about it, there will be empty seats and opportunity will be lost. This is on RARA to make sure they get the word out EVERYWHERE. Billboards, announcements at all airshows, a booth at the major ones. Marketing is the key, and that is what I don't see being done well. If locals don't know that a National Championship event is happening, then the marketing department has failed. Yep, it costs $ to do, but you can't make the $ if no one knows about the event.

Will

[Race5]

Re: Separate Racing from Airshow

You say the fast unlimiteds aren't coming back. Okay, what about the Tsunami rebuild? Johnny is 100% going to race it if there are races to race. Then there is the Shockwave project. Both of those will be 480+ racers. There is also another project that is pretty bold. I can't say who is doing it, or what is being built, but if successful, will change the Unlimited class in a very big way. The paraphrased quote on that project from the owner is "It Better be faster than Shockwave" We have already seen one top Sport class racer move from Sport to Unlimited, there are others interested, and knowing their current levels of sponsorship, its not out of their grasp to build a fast Unlimited. Tiger has said that if someone shows up worth racing, Strega will be back. Well, I just gave you three examples of racers that will give Strega a run for its money. Granted, it will be 5+ years for any of those 3 to make an appearance, but its a little premature to write the Unlimiteds off. There is also the Yak project from Redding that is a wildcard at this point, but when its done, should be a 450+ racer. In the end, who needs Strega, Rare Bear and Voodoo really? Yep they are fast, nope they aren't racing for whatever reason. Do you need to go 490+ or can you have an awesome race where the top speed is 450? 430? Is it really about how fast they are going, or can you have some awesome racing at 430? Looking at the results over the past 40 years, there have been many awesome races with a top speed of around 440, so clearly the ability to run 490 is not what makes for an awesome year of racing.

Lets be honest, you can't split the races and the airshow from each other. They have a symbiotic relationship. You take the racing away from the airshow, and you lose the crowd there for the other part. I think an evening airshow with some night runs, and other interesting stuff (tethered hot air balloons doing rides at night? If nothing else, it would be cool to see. Perhaps a slideshow on a building, more warbird rides, night aerobatic acts without fireworks.) could be a big draw. Get a jet truck out there doing runs in afterburner down the ramp. Military jets blasting around at twilight in full afterburner, that is always a memorable experience. (Get a B1 to blast out in full burner, I'd love to see that again.)

The races can't be any shorter either. There simply isn't time. Yeah its a long week for everyone, but when you have a racer that just doesn't want to work right, every hour that can be spent to find and fix the issue is used. Take it out, test it, okay seems to be better, lets go fly it. Fly it, nope still not right, plane comes apart, people work late into the night, out to the ramp for a power run, nope, not happy back to the pit. That can be and has been the story for many teams over the years. They need the time to get things right. The guys who have everything go smoothly from start to finish, are lucky. Good for them, but that isn't how racing goes most of the time. 3 days of qualifying are needed, then some early racing by Thursday to get things rolling. Seriously, look at any major motorsports race. Its a week long deal to race on Sunday. IF1, Indy cars, WRC, heck, even vintage racing. I was one of those teams that needed all week to get the car right at the Rolex Monterey Historics in 2018. When I wasn't on the track, I was trying to figure out why the car wasn't working right, till WAY late at night. (It took me another year to figure out what the issue was, and it stumped all the really knowledgeable people as well.) From a spectator standpoint, this is sometimes tough to grasp. Okay, the plane doesn't work, stand down and enjoy the show. The trouble is, as a competitor, you can't just stand down and enjoy the show. You spent days, weeks, years getting your racer ready to run, you were accepted, you made it there and it kills you to not be able to go run at your best. So you end up spending every moment you can trying to get it right so that on Sunday, you can go out and run your best.

The races evolved the way they did for a reason. The people racing need all week to get things just right. The races need filler between races so as to keep people interested. (Lets face it, people don't have the greatest attention span when nothing is going on.) The airshow is the filler. This is also why the Volvo precision driving group, car drops, jet car/truck ect work well. They aren't using airspace when the racers come down the chute. They do their thing, racers take the course, and by the time the start lap is ending, those ground based filler bits are clear and out of the way, and spectators attention is back on the racers coming around pylon 8 onto the front straight. Mixing military demos in can break up some of the racing just for a quick change of pace.

In the end, you can have the most well done race week in history, but if no one knows about it, there will be empty seats and opportunity will be lost. This is on RARA to make sure they get the word out EVERYWHERE. Billboards, announcements at all airshows, a booth at the major ones. Marketing is the key, and that is what I don't see being done well. If locals don't know that a National Championship event is happening, then the marketing department has failed. Yep, it costs $ to do, but you can't make the $ if no one knows about the event.

Will

Yeah, that "other" project is interesting for sure.