Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

[N22252]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

Tube vs after-cooler for comparison.....

Nice graphic!... Even if it isn't the best looking paint scheme for the illustrated tube user.

Now this is a bit off topic... but on the topic of Mustangs seen on the internet disassembled since they last raced; what is the current status of Dago Red?

[GRNDP51]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

Tube vs after-cooler for comparison.....

Never got the rundown on what was changed in the scoop/doghouse prior to last year, but assuming it has to be a mix of both of these to be able to run the Dago/RRIII style scoop, and still get ample airflow to everything inside. I may be wrong, but I don't think the current scoop has an oil cooler exit door (or at least don't see any photos of it open). That would lead me to think the current setup is similar to an H-model heat exchanger that solely cools the oil, and the aftercooler takes on it's normal functions with the radiator - I just don't know where this oil cooler/heat exchanger is on MA (or on the H for that matter although I think it's just behind the engine). There are definitely some experimental changes that were done, and continue to be done going into this year.

[Lon Moer]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

Tube vs after-cooler for comparison.....

[GRNDP51]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

A little birdie told me Dreadnought was on the verge of overheating, so me thinks he was pressing it hard. Did Dreadnought have any more left? Probably so, but were they going to risk pushing it harder? No one can answer that... but my guess is not for long if at all). I think you can see where I'm going with this now. Every winning merlin for the last 20 years has had to run at that level to win, Allison rods & all. That's not required to win at Reno any longer, as long as you can beat the Buick - you're there. If 110 inches will keep you on his tail, then 125 will beat him.

I thought I either heard or dreamt that Dreadnought was pretty close to it's limit as well. As you mentioned varying speeds, sure it could've been pushed forward, flat out, all the time, but it wasn't necessary. 426 average, I assumed 435 was TOPS. Considering the fastest she's put down was 459, on the old course, with the tall tail, and the old timing (add about 10mph to today's speed), that sounds right to me...

I think Will and I share the same concerns of 125" without Allison rods. It is good to hear that the 2019 set was bad bearings, not beat during the race. I'll have faith that with how well she ran at 110", 125" should be doable.

Keep it coming Mark!

[Pylon1_Mark]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

I said about 100 inches, so yeah 100-110 inches of MP. No surprises there. Yep it ran nice and cool as well. My #1 worry is the Merlin connecting rods. I don't think Rick does Allison rod engines so we are back to the weakest link; the Merlin connecting rods. Did they run last year without an issue? They sure did. Did they run 2019 without an issue? Not so much. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Rick get a win with his engines. He's been at it a VERY long time. He knows how to build a good engine. Still there is a reason that every winning Merlin for the last 20 years has had Allison rods in it.

We are in a different era now... you don't need to run 150 inches of manifold pressure to win the Gold. You saw Doc last year - he was giving Dreadnought a real run for his money at 110 inches. I watched the uTube video before I went out on Monday, I saw Doc losing ground at times but also picking up ground at other times and finishing right behind Dreadnought. Knowing that Doc was full power the whole race told me that Dreadnought was the one who was changing speeds, he was backing off after gaining some ground, only to have to power up again to stretch his narrowing lead (which honestly wasn't all that much - it was a great race! A little birdie told me Dreadnought was on the verge of overheating, so me thinks he was pressing it hard. Did Dreadnought have any more left? Probably so, but were they going to risk pushing it harder? No one can answer that... but my guess is not for long if at all). I think you can see where I'm going with this now. Every winning merlin for the last 20 years has had to run at that level to win, Allison rods & all. That's not required to win at Reno any longer, as long as you can beat the Buick - you're there. If 110 inches will keep you on his tail, then 125 will beat him.

You know, I'm certainly not a merlin mechanic but I do know that without having time to test these race motors at full race power with 160 octane race fuel prior to Reno, when parts do fail, they will fail spectacularly!!! One year it was bad bearings, 2019 was a bad set of rods from the manufacturer... all part of the game.

It sort of does look like the radiator has been moved up into the fuselage more, and there might be a lower profile scoop under there now. With Pete Law reworking the cooling system, I can only guess what they are doing. He knows his stuff.

Pete made the magic work... yeah Pete!

I really hope they are addressing the easy to fix stuff like the unfinished trim tab actuator covers, or the crooked ailerons, and stuff like that. The airframe needs a lot of attention to the little things to make it perfect. They won't need to run 480, but They will need 470 ish. Dreadnought is all done at roughly 455, so 470 gives one enough speed so that a mistake won't be seriously detrimental.

I really do want to see Miss A on the top of the podium this year, but they need to have their stuff 100% ready to go.

Will

I think they will be as ready as they can be.... and since Brent has so generously allowed us to cover this developing story - you can expect regular updates & pictures. More soon!

[Plane Nuts]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

My take on tube vs aftercooler. Boost heats the intake charge, hence the aftercooler. The aftercooler poses a restriction in the intake tract limiting boost, hence the tube. Now you have more boost plus more heat in the intake tract, hence ADI, a mixture of alcohol and water injected into the intake tract. More boost, more ADI, to a point of diminishing returns as too much ADI tends to put out the fire in the combustion chamber.

I am not an expert in this, just a life long mechanic, gearhead and student of air racing. So if I am incorrect or left anything out, anyone with intimate knowledge on this please educate us.

[Pylon1_Mark]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

One of three "major" things checked off, I have literally no guess at the other 2 yet... Are you implying that the one that can barely be seen is visible in the first teaser pic?

No, it can't be seen - the modification itself is not visible. BUT there is something in the picture of the aircraft that's changed... something obstructing you from seeing the mod. What's deceiving is that this is not the first time this obstruction was visable on the aircraft... it's a new (to me) thing that I almost instantly keyed in on when I saw her Monday morning (one of those "why did they change that?" kinda things). I actually think they did this mod previously since the "obstruction" appeared earlier than this year, so I assume Mr. Hisey just never disclosed it until now. At this point I can't say anything further or I'll give it away. Look close... you may be rewarded with the answer to "why did they change that?" (there is only one logical reason).

But to Will's other points, I do hope the engine can hold, and it would be awesome if the airframe is cleaned and slicked up even further

Ricky Shanholtzer has been doing Doc's engines for years, one part of the program that will not change. Brent has 110% confidence in Ricky's ability to build a motor that can win a gold race. However, and this is always the case of the top tier unlimiteds, race motors take months to build and sometimes (if not most of the time) are not ready until weeks before the event (the motor builders have other clients too). If there is a major problem with the race motor now, Doc will have to race on the ferry motor as there's simply not enough time to build another race motor. Brent wanted it ready early, Ricky likes to test closer to race week, race motor hasn't been delivered yet... so it is what it is. Just one of the things that could derail Brent's attempt at the gold win this year.

The other thing that could throw a monkey wrench into the works is availability of race fuel. Only Miss A and Dreadnought run the 160 octane race gas now, so there could be a situation develop that the race gas isn't made available during qualifications which would certainly put Brent at a big disadvantage vs. Dreadnought's 4360 that puts out gobs of power even without race gas. It's not like Doc can bring the gas with him or have it shipped out - it has to be made 1st, and they don't make it very often.

[GRNDP51]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

I would have to say that although the numbers you quotes are reasonable, they are not absolutes. We all know that Miss A runs the aftercooler and not a tube... so one would assume a max of 100 inches, yes? What if I told you that last year during the gold final Brent ran the entire race at a setting of 110 inches? What if I also added that it was at full power run, 3400rpms, and ran the entire race with the engine running as cool as a cucumber. What if I now told you that Pete Law has been involved running engineering calculations & overseeing testing which earlier this year optimized the aftercooler setup to run roughly 12% more manifold pressure than last year? So now we're talking what... running 125 inches of manifold pressure in an aftercooler setup - not possible you say? Ah, that's where the magic comes in... Brent's got some pixie dust he sprinkles inside the belly scoop, we just can't tell you right now what that pixie dust is, where it comes from (well obviously Pete brought it with him and gave an ample supply to the Doc), nor what it modifies & how. Brent did say that after the race, the restrictions on limiting info shared will be lifted, allowing full disclosure of all that secret stuff.

The above is only one of three major modifications to the aircraft... two mods cannot be seen and are 100% totally hidden - the other mod is nearly hidden, yet visible to those who look with a discerning eye. So with that said, look closer my friend... look closer.

Thanks Mark, this is more or less what I meant by "bridging the MP gap" - not necessarily able to run ~140 like a tube, but running somewhere in between what's been commonly accepted as max for an aftercooled Merlin (100-110 it seems like), and the tube. So 125, awesome! I had a conversation with Will earlier, if this is information that Brent will in fact make public, it could be huge for attracting other Super-Stock Mustangs knowing they can run up front without a full tube conversion.

One of three "major" things checked off, I have literally no guess at the other 2 yet... Are you implying that the one that can barely be seen is visible in the first teaser pic?

But to Will's other points, I do hope the engine can hold, and it would be awesome if the airframe is cleaned and slicked up even further

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

I would have to say that although the numbers you quotes are reasonable, they are not absolutes. We all know that Miss A runs the aftercooler and not a tube... so one would assume a max of 100 inches, yes? What if I told you that last year during the gold final Brent ran the entire race at a setting of 110 inches? What if I also added that it was at full power run, 3400rpms, and ran the entire race with the engine running as cool as a cucumber. What if I now told you that Pete Law has been involved running engineering calculations & overseeing testing which earlier this year optimized the aftercooler setup to run roughly 12% more manifold pressure than last year? So now we're talking what... running 125 inches of manifold pressure in an aftercooler setup - not possible you say? Ah, that's where the magic comes in... Brent's got some pixie dust he sprinkles inside the belly scoop, we just can't tell you right now what that pixie dust is, where it comes from (well obviously Pete brought it with him and gave an ample supply to the Doc), nor what it modifies & how. Brent did say that after the race, the restrictions on limiting info shared will be lifted, allowing full disclosure of all that secret stuff.

The above is only one of three major modifications to the aircraft... two mods cannot be seen and are 100% totally hidden - the other mod is nearly hidden, yet visible to those who look with a discerning eye. So with that said, look closer my friend... look closer.

I said about 100 inches, so yeah 100-110 inches of MP. No surprises there. Yep it ran nice and cool as well. My #1 worry is the Merlin connecting rods. I don't think Rick does Allison rod engines so we are back to the weakest link; the Merlin connecting rods. Did they run last year without an issue? They sure did. Did they run 2019 without an issue? Not so much. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Rick get a win with his engines. He's been at it a VERY long time. He knows how to build a good engine. Still there is a reason that every winning Merlin for the last 20 years has had Allison rods in it.

It sort of does look like the radiator has been moved up into the fuselage more, and there might be a lower profile scoop under there now. With Pete Law reworking the cooling system, I can only guess what they are doing. He knows his stuff.

I really hope they are addressing the easy to fix stuff like the unfinished trim tab actuator covers, or the crooked ailerons, and stuff like that. The airframe needs a lot of attention to the little things to make it perfect. They won't need to run 480, but They will need 470 ish. Dreadnought is all done at roughly 455, so 470 gives one enough speed so that a mistake won't be seriously detrimental.

I really do want to see Miss A on the top of the podium this year, but they need to have their stuff 100% ready to go.

Will

[Pylon1_Mark]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

The manifold pressure gap. A tube Merlin will push about 140 inches, the aftercooled ones max out about 100 or so. The more boost you can make, the faster you go.

I would have to say that although the numbers you quotes are reasonable, they are not absolutes. We all know that Miss A runs the aftercooler and not a tube... so one would assume a max of 100 inches, yes? What if I told you that last year during the gold final Brent ran the entire race at a setting of 110 inches? What if I also added that it was at full power run, 3400rpms, and ran the entire race with the engine running as cool as a cucumber. What if I now told you that Pete Law has been involved running engineering calculations & overseeing testing which earlier this year optimized the aftercooler setup to run roughly 12% more manifold pressure than last year? So now we're talking what... running 125 inches of manifold pressure in an aftercooler setup - not possible you say? Ah, that's where the magic comes in... Brent's got some pixie dust he sprinkles inside the belly scoop, we just can't tell you right now what that pixie dust is, where it comes from (well obviously Pete brought it with him and gave an ample supply to the Doc), nor what it modifies & how. Brent did say that after the race, the restrictions on limiting info shared will be lifted, allowing full disclosure of all that secret stuff.

The above is only one of three major modifications to the aircraft... two mods cannot be seen and are 100% totally hidden - the other mod is nearly hidden, yet visible to those who look with a discerning eye. So with that said, look closer my friend... look closer.

[GRNDP51]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

The manifold pressure gap. A tube Merlin will push about 140 inches, the aftercooled ones max out about 100 or so. The more boost you can make, the faster you go.

Will

Thx Will, exactly

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

MP Gap? please clarify. Thanks

The manifold pressure gap. A tube Merlin will push about 140 inches, the aftercooled ones max out about 100 or so. The more boost you can make, the faster you go.

Will

[Pylon1_Mark]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

if this secret stuff is the key to bridging the MP gap between an aftercooler-type setup and a tube

MP Gap? please clarify. Thanks

[GRNDP51]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

I really can't give too much away, but I will say that Doc & I discussed a "tube conversion". This is not a consideration for Miss A as unlike the Voodoo, Strega, or Dago - Miss A is not and never will be a dedicated single-purpose race plane. Doc has a cross country flight to make to get to Reno which is a lot different than the short hop from somewhere in California. It just wouldn't be able to make that flight with a reasonable margin of safety. This won't be a problem though... secret stuff even I didn't know about is brewing. Stay tuned 😉

This is a good and understandable point. I was under the impression if they did go with a tube, they would fly it to Stead with the stocker/aftercooler and swap to the tube later in the week (similar to Strega 2014). That being said, I don't know if the stocker/aftercooler Merlin that Strega and Voodoo daily drive is in fact "stock", so the trip from OK may still be unsafe at that point. Nonetheless, if this secret stuff is the key to bridging the MP gap between an aftercooler-type setup and a tube, that would be impressive!

[Pylon1_Mark]

Re: Miss America: RENO AIR RACES 2022 - Exciting Things Happening

Off the teaser pic, can't say I see anything different, yet. Would wager it's basic annual time since they haven't flown it since November, and then the refinements/improvements from there on out. Compared to the RRIII prep, MA already has a lot of the hard work done. If the switch over to a tube happens, the infrastructure is already in place with RRIII's scoop/doghouse on the plane. Very curious to see what else is on the table - hopefully some tricks borrowed from the Super Stangs that RRIII didn't have at the time

I really can't give too much away, but I will say that Doc & I discussed a "tube conversion". This is not a consideration for Miss A as unlike the Voodoo, Strega, or Dago - Miss A is not and never will be a dedicated single-purpose race plane. Doc has a cross country flight to make to get to Reno which is a lot different than the short hop from somewhere in California. It just wouldn't be able to make that flight with a reasonable margin of safety. This won't be a problem though... secret stuff even I didn't know about is brewing. Stay tuned 😉