Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

[W J Pearce]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

The Whittington's P-51H first appeared at Reno in 1978. It was damaged in a landing mishap after a broken prop seal. It retuned in 1983 sporting that 5-blade prop. Of the 555 P-51Hs built, it is one, of the two listed as flyable. Mike Coutches of Hayward, CA owns the other.

P-51Hs never wore a 5-blade and I believe that it came from a P-51G. Only two Gs were built; one went to England and the other stayed here in the US.

The G was a lightweight P-51 essentially the same as the F but had 6 .50-cal guns and was powered by a Rolls-Royce Merlin while the F was Packard powered, had 4 .50-cal guns and a 3-blade prop. The G was tested with the 5-blade but the unit was replaced with a 4-blade after one flight because the aircraft was found to be directionally unstable above 250 mph. The unit was a British Rotol.

The RAF G was presumably scrapped (43-43336). But the US G (43-43335), as of 1999 was still in existence... maybe.

I met a guy in high school named John. I don't want to state his last name because he might not want the publicity. John was my biology teacher. He is a former NAA engineer who proudly wore a XP-51G belt buckle. I tried unsuccessfully to learn more about the G and he tried unsuccessfully to teach me biology.

I did learn that he was in the process of restoring the aircraft, which involves custom making many parts. His goal was to get it airborne again. He did not seem interested in my interest of the plane.

On multiple occasions in the late nineties, I spotted John at Reno, the last time being 1999. I continued to pester John about the G. He said that he still has it but that was about it.

Personally, I feel that a project of this magnitude could use a few generous people with deep pockets or at least many generous people with not-so-deep pockets. It may not be feasible to restore it to flying condition but static display should be attainable.


Even if I did not like John's teaching style, I respect his privacy. I can only hope that this project sees the light of day, someday.

So, anyone know where the 5-blade came from for sure? Anyone know a high school biology teacher named John that has attended the air races and has an XP-51G tucked away somewhere? Have I taken this tread off topic far enough?

Bill Pearce

[Peashooter]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

Great stuff, Bill. I recall the Whittington H in the hands of its prior owner, Bill Hogan. He flew a nice acro routine at the old KLUK Jaycees air show about 1974.

BTW, my wife teaches HS science. I'd call "John's" restoration "long-term." Unless there are other "resources." Peas

[First time Juke]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

You must mean this one Race This is actually one of the nicer photos I got back in 83, (the year of the micro bus trip from Tulsa Pretty cool and unique. I feel lucky to have seen it since it never made it back, (for many reasons, none of them good). Not many P-51H Mustangs to be seen around these days, that's for sure. Anyways, enjoy the shot from yesteryear from the airraceaddict.com archives
Bill
Air Race Addict

Fine photo A R A !

Here is a video clip of a P 51 H starting a split esse..also some other stuff by Charles "Chuck" Yeager.

http://www.cebudanderson.com/yeagervideo.htm

Enjoy !

[speeddemon]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

Am I missing something here?

Doesn't the 5-blade Centaurus/Sea Fury combo turn the OPPOSITE direction as the Griffon? Even if you just used the prop hub, I think it would be too big to retrofit with blades that turned the 'American' way.

The 5 blade setup the Brothers W. used was a Griffon Spit setup. At least it turned the right direction.

Back in the early 80's, I remember overhearing a debate between Big Z and A.P. about the construction of Stiletto. Z wanted Stiletto to be Griffon-powered, with a 5 blade prop that used a Rotol hub, and the paddle blades off of an early T-28. A.P. wanted no part whatsoever of Griffons, and made that subject WELL KNOWN on the ramp.

[W J Pearce]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

I don't know if you are missing something or if I am.

If you look at the pics of the Spitfire XIV and P-51H on this thread, it appears to me that the props rotate in opposite directions also the blades look quite different. If you find some photos of Centaurus powered Sea Furies and 5-bladed Griffon powered Spitfires, it appears to me that they rotate in the same direction. And if you look at Merlin powered spits and 5-bladed Griffon spits, it looks to me that they rotate in the opposite direction. I think it is well known that the Centaurus rotates in the non-American way, opposite to a 3350.

Also, consider this except form Victor Bingham's book "Major Piston Aero Engines of World War II" © 1998 on page 167:

"Apparently a relative newcomer to the design office had written to [Lord E.W.] Hives, pointing out that as the Griffon rotated in the opposite direction to the Merlin, the crankshaft spiral should also be opposite."

Or Kev Darling’s "Griffon-Powered Spitfires" © 2001 on page 11:

"To confuse the pilots even more the engine rotated in the opposite direction to that of the Merlin, thus inducing a severe swing to the right."

I think that this all would indicate that the Merlin and 3350 rotate the same direction, clockwise from the cockpit, which is opposite to the Griffon and Centaurus, which rotate counterclockwise from the cockpit.

With everything, you should consider the source. I have not worked on these engines and production ceased long before I was born. The above are my observations and what I have found in texts.

So, how can we find a definitive answer?

Bill Pearce

[Unregistered]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

The issue of rotation is not the limiting factor. Most American propellers are all designed around the Army Navy (AN) hub and shaft standard. 50 spline (used on the Merlin, Allison, early P&W 2800 etc...) and 60 spline hubs (used in late 2800's, 3350's etc...) are two of the most common hubs in the aircraft running Reno. The British had a totally different standard for their propellers. Even if it rotated the (W)right way, a five blade Sea Fury prop won't even couple or "bolt up" to a 3350 prop shaft. There was no common standard between US and GB during WWII for props (or much else for that matter...)

[Chad Veich]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

You are correct Bill, the Centaurus and the Griffon turn "backwards" while the Merlin and 3350 turn the more usual direction. There is no way that the Whittington's P-51H could have used the prop off of a Griffon Spit. I have asked around on several boards and the general consensus is that the five blader must have been one of those made for the P-51G. If that is the case it must surely be a very rare item! Too bad the the Whittington's H model is not seen out and about more often. (if in fact it is still owned by the Whittingtons)

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

Anyone know a high school biology teacher named John that has attended the air races and has an XP-51G tucked away somewhere?

I found some info on MustangsMustangs.com about the gentleman Mr. Pearce mentioned (John), who is supposed to be restoring a G-model Mustang. It also mentions that he was a teacher.

I was wary about giving out his last name, but since it's mentioned on several web pages available to the public, I guess the "secret" was revealed long ago. I still won't mention it, but his name can be found by reviewing these sites.

He may now be in possession of the 5-blade Rotel that the Whittingtons once had on the "H", according to the chat between two Norway residents in the Mustangsmustangs BBS:

http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/bbs/messages8/8123.html

and

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/survivors/p51listA.shtml

John is also mentioned in this 1999 article:

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_12.html

Both he and the plane are listed at www.warbirdregistry.org (date: 2001):

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51registry/p51-4343335.html

Finally, this PDF file mentions how he came about possessing the XP-51G:

http://www.aerohistorians.org/newsletter/052001/may2001.pdf

The first G was serial# 43-43335 and survived the testing it was put through
in the last two years of the war. It was disassembled after the war, and
somehow, the fuselage center section was saved and used as a cockpit trainer
by an aviation tech school in the L.A. area (Los Angeles). When it was no longer needed,
it was sold as scrap to a junk dealer. While rolling down a freeway on a
trailer to the junk yard, it was spotted by a warbird fan (John). He at
first thought it was just a D fuselage, but after stopping the truck driver to
ask where it was headed, saw that it was indeed the utra rare G
model. He reportedly paid the junk dealer on the spot and had it delivered to his
garage. With a tremendous amount of new hand made parts, it could fly again.

[Unregistered]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

Earlier in this post it was suggested that Dave Zeuschel favored the Griffon over the Merlin and that he and Alan Preston had an argument over this fact on the ramp at Reno, I will tell you this for fact. When Dave Zeuschel was asked to send a proposal to Wiley Sanders for the "Jeannie" project outlining his plans for the engine program he let it be known in no uncertain terms The Griffon was a pig! overweight and crippled by a supercharger drive that wanted to destroy itself. He went into other details regarding the engine problems with the Griffon, but lets just leave those out for the sake of this post going to long. Dave Zeuschel started the Stilletto project originally without any backers and later lamented straying away from the "shop" racer concept because of other issues that became valid when Preston's money and control started changing the program. Originally the racer was to have had ducted flaps taking the radiator exhaust air straight out the trailing edge. Too Expensive for our boy AP. My Source, David John Zeuschel, one my mentors, I worked for Zeuschel Racing Engines at the time Dave died and had known him since I was ten years old. When asked if my working for him should not have been a conflict of interest (Since Lyle is my dad.) Dave Replied "There is not enough money in this deal to be of any interest." While working for Dave I asked him his thoughts on the Griffon and he handed me the Sanders memo, He thought they were lucky to get the 499 with the Red Baron, it just didn't work out like he originally thought.
John Slack

[First time Juke]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

How much more power could be pulled out from an Griffonpowered Rotol 5-blader on it ?

Certainly it is a lot lighter than a contrasystem !

[speeddemon]

Re: Rare Bear Prop Swap Photos

Hmmmmm....that's interesting, John. I certainly don't question your position on that one, given your experience.

I'm just trying to remember how the conversation went. It was on the ramp in '84...probably Monday or Tuesday of qualifying. Z said that he had come across someone with a large stockpile of Griffons and was talking about what it would take to change the airframe over. Skip was just kind of standing there looking as non-plused as ever (sort of the "just give me the keys and let me fly it" look).

A.P. just went ballistic...something to the effect of "Damnit, I told you I am NOT the least bit interested in any Griffons..." and it went on from there.

One of those conversations that's like watching a train wreck. You can't NOT watch, but you feel guilty for being there to see it.