Super Sonic, ????????

[tex-fan]

This is a question aimed at Randy, but anyone who knows the answer will be fine. If someone had the means to own a supersonic aircraft [Mig-21, F-100, F-104, T-38] Where could that airplane be taken where the pilot would not get in trouble for breaking the sound barrier? I have heard that a private pilot can go supersonic out over the ocean, but I have no idea if this is true. I know, I probably have to much time on my hands to be thinking up questions like this, but I am courious about it.

[BadIdea]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

I don't have time to copy it, but see:
FAR 91.817

[tex-fan]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

Thanks BadIdea but, Can anybody translate this into laymans terms.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft in the United States at a true flight Mach number greater than 1 except in compliance with conditions and limitations in an authorization to exceed Mach 1 issued to the operator under appendix B of this part.

(b) In addition, no person may operate a civil aircraft for which the maximum operating limit speed MM0 exceeds a Mach number of 1, to or from an airport in the United States, unless—

(1) Information available to the flight crew includes flight limitations that ensure that flights entering or leaving the United States will not cause a sonic boom to reach the surface within the United States; and

(2) The operator complies with the flight limitations prescribed in paragraph (b)(1) of this section or complies with conditions and limitations in an authorization to exceed Mach 1 issued under appendix B of this part.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2120–0005)

§ 91.819 Civil supersonic airplanes that do not comply with part 36.
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(a) Applicability. This section applies to civil supersonic airplanes that have not been shown to comply with the Stage 2 noise limits of part 36 in effect on October 13, 1977, using applicable trade-off provisions, and that are operated in the United States, after July 31, 1978.

(b) Airport use. Except in an emergency, the following apply to each person who operates a civil supersonic airplane to or from an airport in the United States:

(1) Regardless of whether a type design change approval is applied for under part 21 of this chapter, no person may land or take off an airplane covered by this section for which the type design is changed, after July 31, 1978, in a manner constituting an “acoustical change” under §21.93 unless the acoustical change requirements of part 36 are complied with.

(2) No flight may be scheduled, or otherwise planned, for takeoff or landing after 10 p.m. and before 7 a.m. local time.

[King]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

Basically it means that you cannot generate a sonic boom in any area that may be heard on land. This would also apply to Hawai and Alaska.

You can fly the aircraft legally, but you must know when, where and how a sonic boom could be generated so that you can avoid this occurance.

Appendix B details how you can apply for authorization to exceed Mach 1. But you better have a damn good reason to apply.

91.819 is just discussing the Stage 2 noise requierments for FAR Part 36. In other words, don't be noisy.

[Unregistered]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

I remember back to the early 60's when my family lived in west Berlin....we heard sonic booms every single day.......by Russian and German Migs.....
Very interesting times.....but I don't recall ever hearing about any damage to property...or anything.....maybe the cows got freaked out and wouldn't give milk......

That's what I love and hate about America, they got a law, or set of laws, for absolutely everything......They've even figured out how to regulate Air.

[tex-fan]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

Thanks King, I understood that.

[speeddemon]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

Thanks King, I understood that.

Well, you know....these are the things one worries about when he is zooming about in those "supersonic" Citations, right King?

[Pylon1_Mark]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

A waiver can be issued for anything oputside the norm if prudence and a need to do so is presented. I don't think that the land speed record which achieved supersonic speeds (Thrust SSC) was not able to do so without some type of authorization... so if you were hypothetically trying for a speed record attempt - a waiver could be granted for a specific place & timeframe IF you were wanting to do so over US soil. The FAA may remove specific limitations when the applicant can justify to the FAA that the limitations are no longer necessary, that safety would not be derogated with the limitation removed, and that the appropriate training has been accomplished. i.e. The FAA is authorized to allow supersonic flight over land for testing--if over-water flights are not practical.

Speaking of over-water supersonic flights - if I recall correctly anything outside the ADIZ (air defense identification zone) is regulated by the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization), and the afore mentioned FAR regulations do not apply. This is an entirely different can of worms .

[FlyKidChris]

Applicability of FARs

U.S. F.A.R.s apply to U.S. airspace (amongst a great many other things (airman, aircraft, etc...)). Once outside of U.S. airspace, the speed limits don't apply, so many flights, once outside the 12 mile limit, "let her rip." By that I mean, they exceed the 250 knot limit below 10,000 feet. That's also somewhat common practice within the airspace of many ICAO countries; traffic permitting, a "high-speed climb" is yours for the asking.

[HiredBitSlinger]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

I don't think that the land speed record which achieved supersonic speeds (Thrust SSC) was not able to do so without some type of authorization.

I don't see why the FAA would be involved with any land speed record atempt. The becoming airborn is a major failure mode, and should never happen. Keep those wheels on the ground!


Dan Plunkett

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

The rules that the USAF abides by are basically part of a LOA with the FAA.

At my pilot training base in Columbus, Mississippi, a "bang ride" where we went supersonic in the T-38 was part of the training syllabus. The LOA out there in Mississippi said that we could go supersonic on a certain IFR flight plan while above FL300. I believe what happened was we were given a block altitude FL300 - FL390 on a certain radial where we'd hit the number. This happened literally on a weekly basis out there, and I'm guessing it still happens at the 4 bases where T-38 training happens. I think we still had to fill out a "sonic boom log" which was available for the FAA to check out if there were any problems or complaints.

As far as being offshore and going super, there were even some rules there, too. In the F-15 we used the offshore Warning Areas extensively (usually W-122 off the coast of Virginia and North Carolina). It wasn't just legal to let'er rip when outside the 12 NM ADIZ. Our rules actually said we had to be outside 15NM from land and above 10,000 feet, PLUS heading away from landmass if we were close to that 15NM limit. That precluded us from giving ships supersonic flybys and the like (supposedly...).

The possibility always exists in my current job teaching dogfighting in the T-38 that we might accidentally hit the number. We train below 15,000' all the time, so the effects of a sonic boom will be more pronounced than when we did it at 30K. Still, if this happens, we simply have to fill out a sonic boom log in case someone complains. It's not "legal", but since they're all inadvertent sonic booms the FAA isn't out here trying to violate us when it does happen.

[Pylon1_Mark]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

I'm sorry that I left that comment vauge - I don't think the FAA had any involvement... no reason for them to. But I do think that some type of authorization had to be secured prior to the attempt. Enviormental impact and the like - which I'm sure the ICAO was able to get fairly easy considering the monumentous achievement that it had the potential to become and the skill of the people involved. I'd have to research that to be 100% sure though.

[King]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

Well, you know....these are the things one worries about when he is zooming about in those "supersonic" Citations, right King?

Tends to be a problem from time to time, but we work around it.

I won't actually be in Reno till Thursday night now. Our plane will be there at Stead on Wednesday. See ya on the ramp!

[speeddemon]

Re: Super Sonic, ????????

That precluded us from giving ships supersonic flybys and the like (supposedly...).

You know, I used to do that in the P-3 ALL the time. Really impressed the hell out of those 'boat weenies'.