Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

[Unregistered]

People,
#1 The Rumanian clone manufacture of a RR V-12 is DOA
#2 Reno 2005 is over
#3 The AAFO dot com crash is over
#4 Katrina is over

What to do?
Lets put our heads together for a serious attempt to brain storm a modern day V12 and see if we can come up with a fun design that will theoretically challenge the RR bench mark we all know and love today(aka: = 2 a basic clone MG-TF motor that has 12 cylinders and is 26.9 liters.)

who knew? I got some ideas... lets do it? For fun?

ZOOM

[MRussell]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

Hmmmm... Just get Mr. Falconer to upsize his current offerings and presto- a modern Merlin.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

Mate two of the chevy V6s that they ran in Nascar for a while. Or maybe a pair of the Tarus SHO engines with the Yamaha heads. Lot's high performance V6s out there! :-)

Of course, why stop at 12 when 18 or 24 is an option! How about 4 V6 engines with 2 groups of 2, in on top and the other inverted, now you have something like a "round engine" :-)


Michele

[Unregistered]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

Ladies and gentlemen... design your engines..........

People,

> F1 motor X 9 =27 liters..... Okay cool
> 900 BHP X 9 = 8,100 BHP

Hey .... if current million yrs old technology is @ 3,600 BHP, that is 44.4% of state of the art V10s. Who says 2005 technology the ultimate! Look at the MG-TF technology!!!!!!!!!!! 44.4% aint bad for a 1940 design (and oly 12 cylinbers)



> .051 Tee dee air model speed engine ....cool too.... lots of efficiency
> 32,156 Tee Dee's = 1640 cu ins RR motor

Hey.... thats a 600 cylinder corn cob radial X 54 rows........... who wants to design the reduc prop gear case???

ZOOM

[MRussell]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

I want to avoid small-displacement V6s after the Pond racer's bad luck with them.

[Peashooter]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

Hello, Cosworth? I need a "bolt-in" preplacement for the Mouse Motor capable of a reliable 4,000 bhp and a sprint capability of 5,000 bhp for record runs -- all at prop rpms that maintain propulsive efficiency. The specs are up to you.

I'll be installing it in a P-51H fuselage with a current technology wing and low drag canopy and cooling systems.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

I want to avoid small-displacement V6s after the Pond racer's bad luck with them.

I think to clump all small V6's together is a wrong way to think. They are all different and have different strenghts and weaknesses. To treat them the same would be like saying "I don't want to consider piston engines because they have failed and cause planes to crash in the past".

There are a lot of interesting automotive power plants out there!

Michele

[bellarch]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

Anybody else here wonder how a Schneider Cup Record 440mph was achieved?

Hanging BIG Floats....
With numerous stay wires...
Not-so efficient wing profile....
Counter-rotating 2 blade prop...

What if....those powerplants (tandem set-up) were "Race engineered" using todays technology??

Yes, they are rare.....but.

440mph with ALL of that drag.... hmmmmm.

Brian

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

Did you ever see the drawings of Tsunami on floats? At one time there was disussion about trying for the seaplane record. By the way, floats aren't supposed to be that bad drag wise, but wires are. What is even more amazing is the previous records made by the Brits with fixed pitch wooden props!

Three inline large block V8s should get you in the 4000 hp club.... and tractor pull guys know all about hooking them together! How about 4 American V8s, two in the snout, two in the tail for a push/pull twin like a DO335.... that went really fast!

Michele

[King]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

I think to clump all small V6's together is a wrong way to think. They are all different and have different strenghts and weaknesses. To treat them the same would be like saying "I don't want to consider piston engines because they have failed and cause planes to crash in the past".

There are a lot of interesting automotive power plants out there!

Michele

The engines are good (generally) it's the PSRU's where the technology lacks.

[MRussell]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

I think to clump all small V6's together is a wrong way to think. They are all different and have different strenghts and weaknesses. To treat them the same would be like saying "I don't want to consider piston engines because they have failed and cause planes to crash in the past".

Fair enough.

There are a lot of interesting automotive power plants out there!

Michele

Understood, because I work for a car company.
Having said that, I don't believe there is a V6 in existance that has a place above the Sport class in air racing. The V6 configuration, although compact, is vibration prone. The Nissan V6 as prepared by Electromotive for use in the PR and other racing applications, is one of the best V6s in the world, but IMO it has no place producing the sustained thrust required to complete a Gold unlimited air race. Helluva concept though.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

I think if I was seriously looking at automotive powerplants then V8s with turbochargers would be my first choice. Especially a couple of them geared together. The PRU is the real issue. I wonder if you could adapt parts from a large common airplane engine (there must be a lot of tossed into a corner never to run again round motors that could provide some of the parts you would need)

Now this would a project worth spending some lottery winnings on!

Michele

[440_Magnum]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

NO AUTOMOTIVE POWERPLANTS!!

I'm a huge car nut, but automotive engines just don't fly. Especially not at the kind of power levels needed. The power band is about twice as high rpm as it needs to be for a reliable aircraft engine, they're too heavy, and aren't made for 100% rated power for any extended period.

Yes, I know the Falconer engine is "based" on an automotive engine, but its NOT an automotive engine. The differences are enormous.

[Unregistered]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

I think Spacegrrl has the right idea.

Automotive powerplants would work very well if they were designed corrrectly. The only advantage the aircraft V12s have over automotive powerplants is their large cubic inch size and the built in superchargers. This means we would have to couple 2 or 3 big block auto engines togethor to get enough cubes. Three 600ci blocks gives us 1800ci!
If this is done correctly to limit harmonics it may give the advantage of 3 short crankshafts over one long (weaker) crankshaft. The aircraft V12s are really not overly robust designs. Look at the open cylinder banks and low number of long head bolt/studs. Lots of flex there. A modern auto racing engine solves these problems. They can be designed to give superb power levels for an extended period of time. I think the trick will be to design the auto engine in terms of aircraft use. For lightness all aluminum for block and heads. We need a stroker (long stroke to piston diameter) for gobs of tourqe at low RPMS. We should shoot for max tourque/hp in the 4 to 5K range. Turbocharging would work very well. There are great cylinder head designs out there - just pick one. Electronic fuel injection could be used for easy control of mixture. This combo should give us as much or more power than the aviation engines and do so more reliably.

The next big problem is attaching the engine to the prop with some type of reduction unit.

Its fun to dream!
David

[speeddemon]

Re: Cook book recipe for a modern day V12 ! !

How about just a big rubber band, and a crew of 12 to spend the hour prior to the race winding the prop up?