When did it happen?

[BadIdea]

Re: When did it happen?

I am sure there is a market, and a lot of money to be made.

Please tell us where you get your data.
A real merlin engine builder comes on here and lays it all out and you don't buy it.
Please lay out your fabrication and development costs for us.

To be fair I'll lay out how I see it.

Engineering $2 million
Prototype production $2 million
Testing $5 million
Rework and redesign $1 million
Tooling and production $10 million
Cost of initial batch of 20 engines, $1 million each
Number of customers 0
Total loss $20 million

Even if I'm off by a factor of 2, are the $500K engines going to sell any better?

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: When did it happen?

So if limiting the amount of power to be used, in order to increase longevity and tighten up the competition isn't a good idea, and the cubic dollars are not available to either make a lot of really powerful, engines available or build new engines/critical parts....

What's the answer to continue/grow the sport???

Ditch the Unlimiteds and go with Sport??

[MMPerk]

Re: When did it happen?

I don't believe I can add to this. I want to thank all of the posters, this has been a very educational discussion. I can only guess that cost to build a new powerplant...from idea to paper to the actual production of a prototype...well...it wouldn't be cheap. How many of these teams have that kind of money to lay down? I could see it if the reward...prize money was there to help compensate the costs. And please correct me if I'm wrong, it was my understanding that first place in the Gold doesn't cover the cost of bringing an Unlimited to Reno. I do know that the purse continues to grow, but...

I have no idea what it costs to bring a team to Reno and compete, perhaps someone here could shed some light on that for me.

On a personal note...I think I would rather have a proven powerplant, than something that may be newer but not proven. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against new ideas and technology. But it would be odd to see something other than a warbird in the Unlimited Gold Race.

Thanks again to the posters in this thread. I have learned a great deal from the people that visit this forum. I have flown, was a student pilot, was a C-130 crew chief in the Air Force, and now I'm a student again. Please feed me...need more input.

Lonnie

[Eric Martin]

Re: When did it happen?

Hey FNG, you have an issue with Dan, PM me.

**Admin Note** Eric, you'll have to register for the message system in order to send/receive PM's

[Apteryx]

Re: When did it happen?

Can you order a race yak from Russia? That would be cool.

Jarrod-
Eddie Andreni, of Half Moon Bay, Ca, will be importing, (to customer spec), the new production Yak-11's.
They are set up for the R-2000
First one received SHOULD be flying, about now...
(Think he's got an add in Pacific Flyer..)

Paul

[440_Magnum]

Re: When did it happen?

I don't mind, the only damper on my enthusiasm is my astonishment. Here we finally have guys like 440 Magnum, Speeddeamon, Spacergirl, Rare Bear FNG, et al posting a wide variety of information and opinions that have historically been frowned upon, yet much needed, in air racing. The detractors are either silent or have moved on.

I don't know when the attitude shift happened. I don't care.

Well, Eric, I'm still something of a "detractor." At least when it comes to the fairly narrow subject of unlimited air racing. To me, the unlimited class IS about warbirds. Logical? No, its a sport and sports have never been logical. If sports were logical, I wouldn't have seen shattered wooden bats as my Astros got disappointed again last night, and we wouldn't still have carburetors on 358 V8s and weight rules for ~3500 lbs. in NASCAR or grass courts in Tennis. But those anacrhonisms are part of what makes those sports *fun* and interesting, its what makes it a challenge to hit a home run in the World Series or find the engine and chassis setup that lets you win a race at an odd racecourse like Pocono in an ornery, uncomfortable, and hard-to-drive pseudo- "stock" car.

Now, we all know that the warbird racing can't literally go on forever and something will have to step up and draw its own interest and following, and a lot of us may pick up that new interest. Some may not. Whatever comes along next has got to have its own draw, its own appeal for bench-racing among fans, and its own technological challenges, and we're seeing that start to happen more and more in the Sport class.

But here's to hoping that the warbirds keep on for a long time to come- at least until I'm too old to care.... No matter what people come up with to replace Merlins, Wrights, and Pratts, they won't ever quite sound and smell and rattle your rib cage like Merlins, Wrights, and Pratts and that part of the appeal simply cannot be recaptured in any other way. I say lets ENJOY it while we can, and appreciate the talented guys like Sparrow who do what they do against ever increasing challenges. I don't worry about "breaking the last Merlin," because there are plenty of people dedicated to keeping stock Mustangs stock and they'll succeed. And when someone does break the last Merlin available for racing, well, what of it? Would you rather have had it just sit corroding on a shelf or hang dead in a museum? Not me. I think if the engine could talk, it would say "let me go out FAST..."

[aflyer]

Re: When did it happen?

So if limiting the amount of power to be used, in order to increase longevity and tighten up the competition isn't a good idea, and the cubic dollars are not available to either make a lot of really powerful, engines available or build new engines/critical parts....

What's the answer to continue/grow the sport???

Ditch the Unlimiteds and go with Sport??

I think the 4500 lb. rule is the beginning...the "unlimited" class will become an exhibition class.

The change we need to grow/maintain the sport is to have a venue for the one-offs like David Rose's Renegade. The homogulation rule (5 kits) is too much...the required investment for a new racer design is huge. The sport is already too much "rich people only need apply".

We could have a "kit" class, a "homebuilt" class, and maybe a 4-cylinder/fixed-gear putt-putt class for the budget racer. And, still keep F1, biplane, and T6 as they are. Too many classes?--shrink the airshow! It's all about RACING!

We all want to hear and see the Merlins and the big rounds race, but the attrition we saw this year at Reno is only the beginning. The economics are brutal.

John Huft

p.s. Bring back the G.B., and other vintage replicas.

[speeddemon]

Re: When did it happen?

AHEM... 27. get it right I used to be 26.

You're STILL a young whipper-snapper.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: When did it happen?

You're STILL a young whipper-snapper.

Ahem....

[speeddemon]

Re: When did it happen?

Ahem....

Hey, I'm not THAT far behind YOU, oh great one.....

:-)

[440_Magnum]

Re: When did it happen?

Well, this is my last pass with this stuff for now--so.

<Good info>

That's it, food for thought.
See Ya-- Sparrow

Sparrow, I sure hope you keep posting here, frustrated as you might be at times. The info you provide is always incredibly enlightening. Since the number of guys who do what you do for a living can be counted on one set of fingers and maybe a couple of toes, this is probably the only chance most of us will ever get to "talk" to anyone with the kind of knowledge and experience you have. For that I say, "thanks."

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: When did it happen?

We all want to hear and see the Merlins and the big rounds race, but the attrition we saw this year at Reno is only the beginning. The economics are brutal.
p.s. Bring back the G.B., and other vintage replicas.

Duly noted and recognized... I still don't see why a limit on power, not on airframe modification would be a bad idea..

I know Sparrow said something like racers come to win and quashed my idea and others have said something similar in dismissing the idea of power limits.

OK.. I agree, racers come to win and to race but they sure as hell don't come to go broke or break so many engines over a period of time that it becomes impossible to even fly anymore..

With all due respect to Sparrow's position in racing as an engine builder, as someone looking at growing the sport and making it last, I think this may be the ONLY way we can do it.

At least if we want to keep the Unlimiteds in there..

Anyone out there who races going to tell me that they would not feel competitive and like they were racing to win if all that were limited was the power output and that this formula put them in close competition with their fellows?

What's winning anyway? Running away from the field year after year?

If the other ways are not possible, meaning, nobody is going to pony up the dollars to build new engines and it's too expensive/impossible to have enough engines to race more than once a year..

Then someone explain why a power limit solution that makes for close racing and airframe innovation is a bad idea and I'll shut up about it..

Wayne

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: When did it happen?

Hey, I'm not THAT far behind YOU, oh great one.....

:-)

54 and counting Bradster... how far out are you???

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: When did it happen?

Hey FNG, you have an issue with Dan, PM me.

**Admin Note** Eric, you'll have to register for the message system in order to send/receive PM's

No no no We already solved it race week... As he said old business. That was to ML and we have also put it to rest. Your Dad and I did it the right way man to man, and not through the tarmac grape vine.

[matt]

Re: When did it happen?

Hey, I'm not THAT far behind YOU, oh great one.....

:-)

a friend of mine the other day called me obiwan........i guess it was a compliment but damn i ain't that old...

Your Dad and I did it the right way man to man, and not through the tarmac grape vine.

LOL, tarmac grapevine, i love it