When did it happen?

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: When did it happen?

Hey Matt I'm on my way to Stead... Critical Mass is in the trunk!!!

9:40 am

[SCEPTER]

Re: When did it happen?

Hey Matt I'm on my way to Stead... Critical Mass is in the trunk!!!

9:40 am

What's going on with critcal mass and what are you driving?

[ignomini]

Re: When did it happen?

Wayne,

Thank about the history of "limited" racing, like NASCAR restrictor plates. If the entire season were run on plate motors, the engineering budgets would be every bit as much, or more. Working within a restrictive rule set only makes it harder to gain an advantage. Boys being boys, there will always be someone willing to spend the extra money.

Reno Unlimiteds, as they stand today, are self regulating. Owners will come and go, and budgets will rise and fall. If ever there is a year when nobody really wants to win, then you will have a year when everyone runs on limited MAP. Except, right there at the end, when the checkered is waving, somebody will matt it and risk going pop. It's the nature of competition. Forcing 6-8 airplanes to run the exact same speed for eight laps sounds mighty dangerous to me. It sure is in NASCAR.

As to reliability, it has ALWAYS been an issue. The racers are no less reliable today than they have been since say one. From an enthusiast's perspective, Unlimited class racing looks alive and well. We almost had FOUR serious contenders this year. How many years have there been that many planes with a real shot at winning?

As a businessman with the typical desire to get my business the flock out of California, I am more worried about some developer building a giant warehouse where the race course used to be. If anything kills Unlimited warbird racing at Reno, it won't be a lack of serious warbird racers.

And, for those who wish to flame me (a sure sign of recognition, and therefore welcome), my name is Robert Goldman.

Cheers'
RG

[MRussell]

Re: When did it happen?

Just a word of thanks to Sparrow for taking the time to share what he has on this thread. Truly enlightening and inspiring for us non-gum-flappers.
Thanks.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: When did it happen?

Thank about the history of "limited" racing, like NASCAR restrictor plates. If the entire season were run on plate motors, the engineering budgets would be every bit as much, or more. Working within a restrictive rule set only makes it harder to gain an advantage. Boys being boys, there will always be someone willing to spend the extra money.

Robert, how do you figure? For the sake of argument, how can it cost more to run restricted power for a multi race season than it would if you were shelling out 150 grand plus each race, just for a new motor???

What I'm talking about is growing the sport. Right now, we have Reno, last year we had Reno and Tunica and now, looks like we have Tucson, Tunica and Reno.

There are already rumors that Jeff Landers will not have Unlimiteds at Tucson (unconfirmed but certainly possible) and if that winds up true, maybe not at Tunica...

Where does that leave them if/when Reno finally goes away.. Reno WILL go away, someone will build those warehouses. It's not an "if" anymore, it's acknowledged by pretty much everyone that the infield WILL be developed, sooner now than later..

So... my thought on this is, the sport WITH unlimiteds in place has a lot better chance of living on if there is some way to race Unlimiteds more often...

I want to see the big boys stay in the game.. those promoting the sports future don't necessarily feel the same way.

Wayne

[John]

Re: When did it happen?

Very interesting thread!

I don't know about you guys(and gals) but my love affair with the old WW2
fighters will never die, at least until I'm gone. It's the primary reason we
go to Reno. When you hear those engines run it really gets into your blood.

The new technology unlimited racers are very interesting too, but for some
reason we keep losing them. The speeds are so high now that the margin
for error is quite small. New designs are great fun to envision, so I hope it
really works for someone someday.

See you at Reno 2006!

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: When did it happen?

Very interesting thread!

I don't know about you guys(and gals) but my love affair with the old WW2
fighters will never die, at least until I'm gone. It's the primary reason we
go to Reno. When you hear those engines run it really gets into your blood.

Hi John, yep, this is exactly why I'm "whining" on about this...

We FEW.. we VERY few hard-core air race fans from the old days are the ones who are really wanting the warbird and warbird based racers..

To a NEW race fan... I heard some exit poll stuff from a recent air race and the Unlimiteds were hardly on the radar.. As a hard-core, die-hard BIG iron fan, this might surprise you.. did me!

But.. at the event I'm referring to, the T-6's put on a great show by doing an inverted start and maybe "playing" with each other a bit... then getting serious in the last lap..

In other words, folks.. THEY PUT ON A GREAT SHOW!

As a result of this and the fact that the Unlimiteds are SPENDY as far as the promotor (and I don't mean just one) are concerned and we're maybe seeing a trend...

"OK.. We can't afford Unlimiteds.... Are we going to let that stop us????... Nope.. let's run what we can get and grow this sport!"

What happens if the sport does grow, with a new fan base and many of them are never even introduced to the Unlimited big iron?

It'd be a shame but.. Sponsors are FAR more likely to back say, Sport, Sport is cheaper.. maybe even sponsor based races would happen...

Does ANYONE else see the handwriting on the wall??

Now, back to my original post.. is "restricter plate" racing such a bad thing?????

[hattend]

Re: When did it happen?

Now, back to my original post.. is "restricter plate" racing such a bad thing?????

A restrictor plate would make "Unlimited Class" an oxymoron.

Don

[jarrodeu]

Re: When did it happen?

Then it would be the semi-unlimited class.
Putting a restrictor plate would put the speeds close to the sport class.

I honestly don't know how people can like the sport class without liking the Unlimiteds. (no offense to sport class owners, pilots, and crew)

There is no comparison.

Jarrod

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: When did it happen?

A restrictor plate would make "Unlimited Class" an oxymoron.

Don

Ummn... they already have a 4500lb weight limit.. so, what would just not having any Unlimited racing make the Division???

Extinct?

Choice:

Extinct:
Oxymoron:
Forumla Unlimited:

Which do you choose??

Do YOU have the bux to make it work totally Unlimited??

Wayne

[First time Juke]

Re: When did it happen?

Very interesting thread!

The speeds are so high now that the margin
for error is quite small. New designs are great fun to envision, so I hope it
really works for someone someday.

See you at Reno 2006!

John I agree with you 100 %. Who wouldn't like to be new Howard Hughes one day and sunbathe in the tabloids. Let's dream on.

rgds,

Juke

[440_Magnum]

Re: When did it happen?

Ummn... they already have a 4500lb weight limit.. so, what would just not having any Unlimited racing make the Division???

Extinct?

Choice:

Extinct:
Oxymoron:
Forumla Unlimited:

Which do you choose??

Do YOU have the bux to make it work totally Unlimited??

Wayne

Once again, this is an outsider/railbird talking, but since we're all stating our opinions here goes:

The problem I see is that every "formula" racing class degenerates eventually and then re-emerges with a new set of problems under the new rules, and the formula never saves money as someone else pointed out. I know its almost apples and oranges, but look at NAStyCAR- the teams have ENTIRE engine shops and ENTIRE R&D programs just to develop restrictor plate engines that produce half the power of their "regular" engines, and do so for only 4 races per year. Thats right- they spend about as much on engine R&D for 4 races as they do for the other 32! Slap a horsepower limit on the unlimiteds, and (IMO) you'd kill the class. It might re-emerge in a different form, but I'll bet you a deluxe burger that it wouldn't re-emerge any cheaper. Unlimited air racing is a high-dollar sport, and as long as there are people a) WITH the bucks, and b) with the INTEREST to run, they'll throw whatever money it takes at the sport to win. Throwing a huge wrench into the rules will just hurt a lot of people who are already in the sport and have, over 5, 10, or 40 years laid down their approach to winning races (Tiger, Shelton, Brown, Button, Hisey, etc. and their technical guys like Sparrow, Kerch, and Shanholtzer). Those guys would find themselves with an inventory of "illegal" engines and parts that suddenly have no value to anyone, and airplanes that have been highly developed with a lot of $$ over the years, but would not be competitive under the new rules, forcing them to spend MORE money to be competitive again.

I like the way the Sport class is growing, and it may be the future of highly popular air racing. But why start screwing around with the unlimiteds anyway? If their time comes to quit running, then it comes. Life goes on, and maybe an "unlimited sport" class emerges to take its place. But I'll wager it won't "quit" for a good while yet. My hunch would be to let it evolve (or devolve) as the market and the aircraft owners dictate, rather than legislate change from the outside.

<editing for one more point that occurred to me>

I guess the real problem I see with controlling the unlimited class to "make the racing better" is that it presumes that fans and spectators are the priority, and my impression is that is not really the case for racers who want to run unlimited. Its about going fast and beating the other guys, and if it was JUST the pilots and crews and engine builders alone in the desert doing their thing, they'd probably still do it. If the win comes by being such a threat that the other guy breaks trying to qualify, its still a win and its still part of the overall game- the racing doesn't have to be "neck and neck down to the wire," races are legitamately won and lost in the pits and in the engine shops too.

[ignomini]

Re: When did it happen?

Hey 440_Magnum,

You hit the nail on the head brother!

[BadIdea]

Brilliant Post!

I guess the real problem I see with controlling the unlimited class to "make the racing better" is that it presumes that fans and spectators are the priority, and my impression is that is not really the case for racers who want to run unlimited. Its about going fast and beating the other guys, and if it was JUST the pilots and crews and engine builders alone in the desert doing their thing, they'd probably still do it. If the win comes by being such a threat that the other guy breaks trying to qualify, its still a win and its still part of the overall game- the racing doesn't have to be "neck and neck down to the wire," races are legitamately won and lost in the pits and in the engine shops too.

I think you are on to something!

Perhaps the best way to ensure the future of unlimited air racing is to make sure that the Aircraft Owners have a good time at the races?
They are the ones putting up the big bucks and making it happen.
If they are having fun they will spend the money to keep the expensive racers flying?

What do ya think?

[matt]

Re: When did it happen?

that might be the reason more pilots don't come to race, the way these guys are treated here at reno (and i don't mean by the fans).

if we could get a reasonable purse and an appreciative race association we'd be in business.