"Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

[AAFO_WSagar]

I suppose most of you have heard about the "incident" up at Seatac where a contract ramp hire hit an Alaska aircraft with a baggage ramp, didn't say anything and then subsequently, the AC had an explosive decompression at something over 26,000 feet....

Hummn.. I'm all for saving money and that but it just strikes me raw that companies are "outsourcing" in this way. Hits me the same way as when I call a support line and can't understand half of what the person is saying because english is a second language to them.

Would an Alaska employee who had been with the airline for years, had a good retirement, protection for screwing up provided by a union have neglected to tell anyone he'd hit the airplane while loading it??

I can't say I know a lot about the company that Alaska had contracted with to do their ramp work but I would bet a fair amount that the people working for them are NOT as well paid or protected as those who were displaced when the company was contracted and took over the work..

Feel free to tear into my tirade here, I welcome other opinions, pro or con...

I take "outsourcing" very personally and I'll qualify my "bitterness" by saying that I was displaced by a form or outsourcing some years back and it stings to see it and will forever..

Slam away!

Wayne

[speeddemon]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

No slam here. As someone who has looked into those kinds of jobs before to 'plug holes' in budgets...the people who generally hold them are young, possibly foreign, and of a lower educational background. And they don't get paid squat...which is one reason said airline went to them in the first place.

Man, I have no tolerance for that. I don't care how much you screw up...you HAVE to fess up, take responsibility, and TELL someone. That guy is going to be in a lot more trouble now than he would have been had he mentioned it while the plane was still on the ground.

Air Race Addict gets to deal with those guys a lot...and is from the same parent company as the airline in question. What is the buzz you're hearing, Bill?

[spacegrrrl]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

I'm too much a liberatarian to not respond. It wasn't "explosive" decompression. They just couldn't pressurize the plane and immediately returned to the airport. Small point. The real point I wanted to make is that union workers in both baggage handling and aircraft maintanence have done bone head things that caused aircraft incidents. This wasn't "union" and "non-union", this was a stupid ramp worker who should be immediately fired. I personally know a few union ramp workers at seatac and some of them are anything but perfect workers.

As for outsourcing, I expect it will sort itself out. If the quality of service is substandard then companies will be forced to return to the labor source that previously met the companies needs. As a consumer you should always voice your opinion and make your decisions as to who you give your business to when you encounter poor service from anyone. To illustrate the point, an East coast bank ousourced their phone service. After feedback from their customers they offered their customers a choice. Pay slightly higher fees and return to U.S. based phone support. The customers overwhelmingly choose increases in fees and a return to U.S. based phone support. If you really believe in it then take "buy American" seriously. Now there is how it is supposed to work!


Michele

[speeddemon]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

Actually, what I am understanding is that it was not an 'explosive' decompression (i.e. instantaneous structural failure), but rather a 'rapid' decompression (little hole opened up to BIGGER hole under the pressure). They were at FL 260 when it happened, so they had to have been getting some semblance of pressurization to get above that altitude. Every 'heavy' climb checklist in the world has you checking pressurization on climb out as well as when you level off at altitude. If they got that high, I don't think it was a case of the plane not being able to pressurize.

Now as I recall from NATOPS, 'rapid' decompression meant something like 2-10 seconds. That is still enough to rip metal, pop eardrums, and make life pretty darn scary for a while....and as PIC, definitely enough for me to declare an emergency and abort.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

"Explosive" may have been too strong a term but, close enough to what *could* have been a pretty nasty disaster (as in REALLY fast decompression and structual failure) and total loss of airplane/people...

Regardless of the union/nonunion debate, I'd like to think that I would be willing to spend a couple more bucks per flight to have reliable, TRAINED persons working the ramp... regardless if they are slinging bags or kicking tires!

I DON'T think that is what the present situation on most ramps is heading for with all of the outsourcing going on...

With Alaska's history, man, I'd think they would really have stayed away from this sort of situation!

Wayne

[Jr.]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

Companies today are no longer thinking about people, they are thinking about the bottom line. That's fine, but safety and common sense has to take place. The ramp rat in question should be fired. I know if that was you or I, especially at my job, I would be fired, no questions. The company I work for is pro-safety. Immediate termination is something is remotely unsafe. ( It is a fortune 500 company in construction ).

The union/ non-union arguement should not matter either. If someone is doing their job and doing it properly, it should not make a difference.

People, regardless of what occupation you have, must take responsibility for their actions and how it will affect others. That way, we all win in the end.

[Bill@Interstell]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

Companies today are no longer thinking about people, they are thinking about the bottom line.

You used the correct word here "Companies". This phenomenon is not limited to the airlines, and personally, I think it sucks. I work for a Fortune top 10 company with the outsourcing, offshoring bug and it isn't working out all that well for us. Here are a few observations oabout my experiences with IT services:

Employees from offshore service providers who are physically in the US cost pretty much the same as the US employees by the time you pay overseas living bonus, and cover visa issues, etc.

Employees offshore are indeed cheaper. In a case I know of, the offshore cost are about 25% of the original company employee cost. However, our statistics show time to deliver finished products is about 4 times as long. We have had problems with re-work because the provider writes code to spec and we just aren't that good at writing tight spec.

We need a larger than anticipated number of employees involved in managing the offshored providers as they don't know our business.

In addition, the jobs that are being offshored are mostly the entry level jobs that used to be filled by recent college grads. My company now only hires experience employees when they can find them. Where do these managers think their kids are going to find work when they get out of school? Apparently, in India.

[Skyracer]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

Ummm...hate to stir the pot on this one; but, as we all know, it is the pilot that is responsible for ensuring the airworthiness of an aircraft before flight. So, what happened to the preflight walk around? From the pic's I saw, the paint was pretty scraped up and the damage should have been clearly visible during a walkaround. This isn't to excuse the baggage handler's failure to report the damage, just a reminder as to who is responsible for ensuring the aircraft is ready for flight before climbing in.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

You used the correct word here "Companies". This phenomenon is not limited to the airlines, and personally, I think it sucks. I work for a Fortune top 10 company with the outsourcing, offshoring bug and it isn't working out all that well for us.

That's funny...I work for the World's Leading Provider of Combat Airpower and we're outsourcing all sorts of stuff. All of the maintenance at my current base is civilian contracted...which makes it interesting when we want/need to deploy somewhere and it's not part of the contract that was signed!

[Randy Haskin]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

Ummm...hate to stir the pot on this one; but, as we all know, it is the pilot that is responsible for ensuring the airworthiness of an aircraft before flight. So, what happened to the preflight walk around?

From what I read, the pre-flight damage was a 'crease' in the skin -- that's well within the realm of things that could be missed during a walkaround of an MD-80.

I love this from one of the articles...

"This was absolutely terrifying for a few minutes," said passenger Jeremy Hermanns, a pilot who was returning home from a holiday visit with his parents when the incident happened Monday. He took photos on the plane, including one of himself in an oxygen mask.

Hmmmm...so, anything that is remotely non-standard is 'absolutely terrifying'?! This guy -- a self-professed pilot probably heard a pop, the masks dropped, and the jet started to descend -- completely controlled -- a handful of seconds later. Wow...yeah, I can really see how you'd sh*t your pants on that one. (?) WTF are they teaching pilots these days that would get you 'terrified' when that happened??

I have only been 'absolutely terrified' in an airplane once...and that was right after an Iraqi surface to air missile blew up about 100 feet behind my jet following 25 seconds in which it was flying up at me. Sheeple have a pretty low threshold for getting scared....it's pretty sad.

[First time Juke]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

Randy....what kinda missile ( Sam-? ) was that..did the countermeasures not work ?

I think I would have been at least somewhat worried as well.

[speeddemon]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

Randy....what kinda missile ( Sam-? ) was that..did the countermeasures not work ?

I think I would have been at least somewhat worried as well.

I'll step in for Randy on this one, Juke. It was actually two French-made Roland missiles fired in quick succession. Randy popped a bunch of countermeasures, pickled the ordinance, and did a lomcevak that would have made Art Scholl proud....and fortunately both missiles went for the chaff.

And having seen the gun camera footage (with audio), I do have to say that it is the only time I've ever heard my brother squeal like a little girl. But the 'reply' when his Wizzo suggested that they 'go back and take out the launcher' was one for the ages (although, not entirely appropriate for this forum).

I'll second Randy's comment about the passenger/pilot's 'overreaction' on the Alaska flight. But at the same time, I know that having 'driven the bus', it is awful hard to have to sit in back and just go along for the ride...especially if something went wrong.

As for the comment from Skyracer, I can't say this from an AIRLINE pilot's perspective, but I think the pilot usually preflights the aircraft before the baggage is completely loaded, etc. I know when I was flying in the military, I preflighted the a/c two HOURS before we took off...and in that time span there were all sorts of fuel handlers, ordinance guys, etc. that were all over and around the aircraft--plenty of time and opportunity for something to happen and not get 'caught' by the pilot.

Just my .02

[Air Race Addict]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

As for the comment from Skyracer, I can't say this from an AIRLINE pilot's perspective, but I think the pilot usually preflights the aircraft before the baggage is completely loaded, etc. Plenty of time and opportunity for something to happen and not get 'caught' by the pilot.
Just my .02

And a .02 well spent Brad You are absolutely correct. On through flights, it is usually, (Company Policy at Horizon and probably at Alaska) that the Captain does the walkaround, originating and terminating are done by the FO, (First Officer or copilot for those not familiar with the term, not F*** Off ) The FO then is dealing with clearances, etc while Capt is going through setting up FMS and misc cockpit checks. So, don't try pinning it on the crew. (And this from a mechanic). Yeah, it might end up being policy that the Capt or FO do a post loading walkaround. But does that really solve the overall issue? Not in the least.
It started as a simple bump into the aircraft by a piece of ground equipment with a dent/crease as a result, PROBABLY. (I wasn't there). Where the problem lies is with the person that did it, probably said oh, it's just a little dent, and pressed on like nothing happened. (The person involved said there wasn't anything visible ) It doesn't take much folks. If you are talking say....7-8 psi, and the damage was over say, 144 square inches, (12x12 inches), you do the math.
IMHO, you can somewhat make it a Union issue. Yeah, you can say that, PARTLY. For the life of me, I cannot justify the wages that baggage handlers and ground service people who were replaced, in comparison to what the Mechanics were paid. I also happen to believe that the Pilots in the major airlines are underworked and overpaid, but once again, that is just my opinion. Top management is not innocent either, so don't get me wrong. I have to say that the top people at Alaska and Horizon are well compensated, but hey, I have a job, they vote every year whether to include me in the profit sharing (if there is any), and they have a pretty nice 401K program. I'm not going to get into that stuff any further than I have here. Horizon has been good to me and my family.
Alaska made reasonable proposals (IMHO) to AS baggage service people to vote on and they rejected the offer. Too bad, so sad. It might have been temporary, maybe not. I am sure all of the people who lost their jobs didn't vote their way out. But, it is squarely on the shoulders of the union officials who were not honest with their members. Just ask the 1500 or so mechanics who were replaced at Northwest, about their wonderful union, (which happens to be the one I am forced to belong to, (one way or another).
I have been with Horizon for 21 years and in the Alaska Air Group for 17 or so of those. I saw how they handled things after 9-11. They bent over backwards to NOT lay-off employees. Well, they didn't have to, partly due to the decisions that were made long before by the people at the top to stash cash, and the sweat of the worker bees since.
Part 2 of my PARTLY comment has to do with the messed up bankruptcy laws. Due to the BR of United and others who were in dire trouble BEFORE 9-11, they have been allowed to survive - (on the US taxpayer backs for one) and at the expense of financially viable companies who have been forced to cut expenses where they can, to stay competitive with the companies who all of a sudden have no creditors or debts yet are allowed to start fare wars? In the middle of the price of fuel almost doubling in cost! BS I SAY! Alaska cut where it had to, without, (in their opinion) compromising safety. Well, did they really compromise anything? I think yes, in a way, in that the lost baggage claims are up, and probably some ramp service delays, which corelates to more passenger complaints. Anyone could have done what that bozo did in SEA. ANYONE! ANYTIME! ANYWHERE! The ramp people who worked for Alaska ground service were not mechanics, and would have been capable of making the same poor choice that the guy who hit the plane made. It's simply a matter of it not being part of their education or training, as far as I know. Just maybe a little common sense could have saved the day. I am sure there have been thousands of unexplained, unreported, mysterious cases of ramp rash at every airline in the world, and by their own employees. IT HAPPENS.
Memsi, (or whoever is contracted to do the servicing and baggage handling for Alaska) will certainly pay the piper for this mistake, as will the perp. Will it change anything? Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell.
Now, outsourcing is a very separate and serious issue when it comes to the actual safety of the aircraft. I feel kinda uneasy about the things I am hearing regarding the oversight or lack thereof of offshore aircraft maintenance facilities. Horizon does send some of their heavy checks to Canada, but the Canadian Airworthiness people are very good at what they do, (sometimes a little TOO good?). We do that on a limited basis, just when we have more work than people. It is a juggling act to have enough people when you need them and not so many that they are sitting around when things are slow. Horizon has no hidden desire to hire and layoff people. The paperwork alone would kill them. They don't save bazillions of dollars to go into the pockets of the top dogs. They do save some by having contracts for that type of work. However, we never have received the quality of work that we get from our own people. You never do. So, after my rambling from one who is "in the business", take these two thoughts with you:
1st: I agree that the quality of service is never as good as it is when the employees have a vested interest in the welfare of the company. Never was, never will be. But, you get what you pay for and I'm sure Alaska is taking a close look at that as we speak.
2nd: Unions have their place, but it wouldn't have made a difference in this case. The perp should have told someone, ANYONE, what happened. Be responsible for what you do.
Thank you, and you may return to your regular programming

[speeddemon]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

Geez, Bill....when I asked you to comment, I didn't mean you had to put out a political manifesto or anything.

A simple "Baggage handler bad" would have sufficed! :-)

[Air Race Addict]

Re: "Editorial" Outsourcing - Alaska Airlines: Saving Money

Geez, Bill....when I asked you to comment, I didn't mean you had to put out a political manifesto or anything.

A simple "Baggage handler bad" would have sufficed! :-)

Well Brad, you didn't say "don't do it" HAH!
It's just that the three issues are very big deals to me. Unions, Bankrupt Airlines, and Outsourcing are right up there on my to-do list. We just happened to bring all three into the same conversation, either by sheer coincidence or stupid blind luck. (or bad luck And yes, DAMN BAGGAGE HANDLER BAD is putting it mildly to say the least.