Travesty...?

[Unregistered]

I read, with interest, the story on Dago Red. I'm dumbfounded how Mr. Sagar can call the P-38 restoration a "travesty."

This, plain and simple, is the BEST thing that has ever happened to that airframe.

Is it possible that a ground up restoration should have happened years and years ago? Would this have prevented the inflight fire and off-airport landing. Probably, but can't say for sure.

What is true is that the CAF, and Lefty Gardner by default, don't exactly have the best track record of aircraft maintenance / operations. Having said that, they are repsonsible for the saving of many rare warbirds.

Red Bull is responsible for this P-38 airframe that will now be around many more years - in top flying condition. This is what is best for the airplane, and people that are interested in warbirds and history. Many more people will see it now. Take out the emotion and take a look at reality.

I'd thank Red Bull for this, not label it a travesty.

Bill Meistein

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Travesty...?

Bill,

Some airplanes simply have a richer history as racers than they ever did as a "warbird".... White Lightnin' would surely be one of these airplanes.

In my opinion, and it is only my *opinion* Red Bull could have garnered much more interest in the airplane had they followed its *true* history as a racer, rather than a non-existent "history" as a warplane.

However limited the supply of P-38's is, in fact, this airplane only did battle on the race courses of the sport, not on the battlefields of its era...

While I don't dispute the fact that Lefty's airplane will be extremely well cared for, in this case, history is, apparently, in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks for the dissenting opinion, tis good to keep the air clear isn't it..

"Mr" Sagar..

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Travesty...?

Bill,

Some airplanes simply have a richer history as racers than they ever did as a "warbird".... White Lightnin' would surely be one of these airplanes.

In my opinion, and it is only my *opinion* Red Bull could have garnered much more interest in the airplane had they followed its *true* history as a racer, rather than a non-existent "history" as a warplane.

However limited the supply of P-38's is, in fact, this airplane only did battle on the race courses of the sport, not on the battlefields of its era...

While I don't dispute the fact that Lefty's airplane will be extremely well cared for, in this case, history is, apparently, in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks for the dissenting opinion, tis good to keep the air clear isn't it..

"Mr" Sagar..

I think this is how many of us feel. Keep the history alive. Also don't see an airplane with a huge Red Bull logo as warbirdish. Unless they had Red Bull in MRE's during the war. Red Bull also has a habit of being huge supporters of somthing to gain a market and then disappearing. It happend in skiing, snowboarding, mountain biking, and now it's aviations turn.

[JCP]

Re: Travesty...?

A P-38 flying is a P-38 flying....... with only what...2 currently flying (flying - not flyable) It's strange to me that people will bitch about it not being painted the same as before......It's always going to be known as Lefty's P-38 no matter what markings it wears. It will be a first class restoration and hopefully remain flying for years to come.

[speeddemon]

Re: Travesty...?

A P-38 flying is a P-38 flying....... with only what...2 currently flying (flying - not flyable) It's strange to me that people will bitch about it not being painted the same as before......It's always going to be known as Lefty's P-38 no matter what markings it wears. It will be a first class restoration and hopefully remain flying for years to come.

Amen.

I personally think it had MORE significance as an air race vehicle when it was owned by J.D. Reed and actually MODIFIED for racing. When Lefty had it, I always saw it more as a CAF 'flagwaver' that happened to race. But I also enjoyed it just as much watching the aerobatic routines and stuff.

It's always going to be White Lightnin in our hearts...but now it'll be going to a good home.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Travesty...?

I think any fan of air racing should be extremely dissappointed at Red Bull. This is yet another racer whose history is lost just to be replaced with a made up military past. Imagine if all air museums repainted their aircraft based in the tastes of the museum director ignoring their past.

This is a bad decision on the part of Red Bull and a great loss to the air racing comunity.

Michele

(still upset about the repainting of the Huricane "Last of Many")

[SCEPTER]

Re: Travesty...?

It's strange to me that people will bitch

I will always retain my bitching rights

[JCP]

Re: Travesty...?

Me Too!

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Travesty...?

I think any fan of air racing should be extremely dissappointed at Red Bull. This is yet another racer whose history is lost just to be replaced with a made up military past. Imagine if all air museums repainted their aircraft based in the tastes of the museum director ignoring their past.

1. With Red Bull, the airplane is getting a first-class rebuild which will keep the airplane flying for years to come. With Lefty, this was definitely *not* the case. The airframe needed serious amounts of in-depth TLC, and that was not happening under the CAF.

2. Most museum warbirds are painted in phoney paint schemes that don't represent the actual airframe in the collection, anyway...so what does it matter? Most surviving aircraft were stateside trainers and not combat vets.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Travesty...?

Red Bull will restore it and strip it of its legacy. How can you say that someone else wouldn't have come along and done a decent restoration AND kept the history of the plane in mind?

This is a sad thing.

Michele

[speeddemon]

Re: Travesty...?

How is that stripping it of it's legacy? Lefty never won anything with that airplane. Yes, it was fun to watch fly around the pylons, but as I stated before, it was MORE a symbol of the CAF than it was as a racing plane...by ANY stretch of the imagination. People who think of that plane as a 'racer' probably only ever saw it at Reno, and not in any of the other capacities that Lefty used it in.

Kermet Weeks bought out the Tallmantz Museum many moons ago, and with it restored the Paul Mantz P-51C to military standards...instead of how I would have liked to see it as the racer. Hell, that was a Bendix trophy winner. But it STILL is NX1204...no matter how you slice it. A paint job can't strip a legacy.

N25Y, no matter what configuration, will still ALWAYS be Lefty's Lightning.

The people who are crying what a shame it is that it won't be preserved AS 'White Lightnin' are not looking at the big picture here.

I mean, heck...John Bagley bought Ole' Yeller from Hoover and 'sort of' kept it in the Evergreen Aviation colors...but not really. And if you are really talking 'leagacy', then the ONLY paint scheme for that airplane is the Rockwell International paint scheme. But no matter who/what/where/how, it is STILL the same airplane, and you can't take the memories away.

I am sad to see it go. But White Lightnin' was NOT going to fly again under it's former ownership. And I do not mean any disrespect to Lefty or his family. The resources just weren't there.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Re: Travesty...?

A paint job can't strip a legacy.

The man HAS a VERY good point. Just as long as we remember her as White Lightning she always will be.
I just don't like Red Bull as a company. I have dealt with them in the extreme sports industry. I have watched them come in run off all other the other sponsors. Then split when they find the next fad. The Red Bull Air Race thing will die in a few years when they pull out(3-5 year presence in most sports), and the general public will forget about pylon racing. Why... because Red Bull has made the public THINK that this is what Air Racing is ALL about. An idea they stole from someone else from what I have heard. They had a large hand into the death of mountain bike racing in the U.S. I know that for a fact. Drove EVERY sponsor out with their big money, and then left it to rot.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Travesty...?

The Mantz racer repaint was also a horrible thing.

As was the restoration of Stilletto to "stock" even though all it ever was is a racer.

The return of "Miss Ashley" to stock. Sigh.

The decision to repaint "The Last of Many". The last Huricane every built. A plane that never served in the military and had an air racing past to Battle of Britain colors. Give me a break!

There are plenty of other examples where racers have been put back stock and all but dissappeared from public view. So many of these planes wouldn't even be around if it weren't for air racing. Those histories are every bit as worth maintaining as invented military ones.

What I applaud is when someone does the right thing, as we saw with the Thompson Racer Super Corsair. Thank gawd they didn't repaint that to some inappropriate color scheme. (or the Ed Weiner's P-51 restoration, another one done right)

My point was that there could have been other potential buyers that would have refurbished the plane and left it in its original colors.

Also am I also the only one sad that it is no longer in the states?


Michele

[Air Race Addict]

Re: Travesty...?

Michele,

.
My point was that there could have been other potential buyers that would have refurbished the plane and left it in its original colors.

THAT, my dear, is THE problem. Nobody from here stepped up to buy the airplane, which presented a dilemma for the Gardner family who faced a decision that I am sure was difficult for many reasons. I don't believe for even one minute that they were specifically looking for a buyer outside the US. But that's what happened. Just celebrate the fact that #13 will not end up as a museum piece or worse. Like it was mentioned, she will always be White Lightnin to those who really loved that airplane.

Also am I also the only one sad that it is no longer in the states?

You can't possibly believe that anyone on this board, or others could in any stretch of the imagination be happy about THAT, can you? One of the biggest disappointments for me was when Lefty was erased from the program by RARA. (My understanding.) My wife went to Reno in 88 and 89 and #13 was/is the only airplane she can identify in a line-up. She has good taste, right? She hasn't been back for many reasons, but I find it quite remarkable that Lefty and WL made such an impression on her, that if a P-38 flew over, she would know what it was, yet she wouldn't be able to identify the difference between a B-52 and a Tri Pacer! And after being around ME for over 18 years!
Bill

[AAFO_WSagar]

Clearing the air

THAT, my dear, is THE problem. Nobody from here stepped up to buy the airplane, which presented a dilemma for the Gardner family who faced a decision that I am sure was difficult for many reasons. I don't believe for even one minute that they were specifically looking for a buyer outside the US. But that's what happened. Just celebrate the fact that #13 will not end up as a museum piece or worse. Like it was mentioned, she will always be White Lightnin to those who really loved that airplane.
[/B]

Bill.. since I guess I sort of offhandedly started this thread with my "travesty" comment in the Dago story, I want to clarify some information.. The Gardner family tried for over a year to find backers to bring the airplane to prisine condition and then fly it out of a museum setting. They could not find that/those backers. Family financal needs dictated they sell to the highest bidder, which happened to be Red Bull...

The travesty, IMHO, is Red Bull discarding the racing legacy of the airplane and restoring it to stock military... a fact we don't really know will happen after all.. As far as I know, no formal announcement of the final look of the airplane has been made..

It's as sad to see Lefty's airplane go "stock" as it would be to see Rare Bear, Dago Red, Strega or some others go that way... It's something we all need to think about though as the owners of some of these airplanes grow older and less bolder and in some cases, unable to finance the airplane in present status...

We could lose them all as racers.

I hold to my original comment that this is a "travesty"....

I'm very happy the airplane will return to the sky rather than languish in a hangar on blocks... I'm just sad to see it go stock (if it goes stock)

To each his own..