Super Sonic question?? hey randy

[Unregistered]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Hey Wayne-

Going to make a cameo appearance as alternate and fly 5 laps on the course so I don't loose my qual... I'll see you Sunday, I'm coming (sts) up for the brief. We will see what the future brings.

-Ken

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

Ken, you are right about the trappings of a 2-seat fighter...and you also allude to its biggest strength yourself in talking about your LOWAT and the thought that it was a good way for someone to create a smoking hole.

The good news for me is that I don't really have a chip on my shoulder about the whole 2-seat vs 1-seat thing. I have seen it from both sides, and I think that both camps have merit to their arguments. I do think that a lot of the single-seat chest thumping about "we can do it ourselves" is a little misguided (isn't the real glory in how much ass you can kick, as opposed to how many dudes in the jet it took to kick that ass?), but I'm also not so ignorant to think that you need 2 guys in the jet to perform the majority of the missons we're called to execute.

The reality is that having a WSO in a fighter is a huge benefit AND a huge Achilles heel. At the same time that crew coordination and sensor management is tough to get right, having a second brain and a second set of eyes and ears on board is sometimes worth its weight in gold (and fuel, since Ken mentioned it).

I have been in situations where I had great SA over a situation, but a poorly-timed or worded comment from the 'pitter totally dumped my awareness. I have had poor performance on a sortie (missed target, missed radar sort, got killed, whatever) because my WSO either couldn't operate his sensors well or in accordance with whatever mission we were doing. Those are all areas that it would have been better if I were in a 1-hole Eagle and had more fuel on board than them on board.

On the other hand, I have literally had my ass saved by a WSO in combat who saw VERY CLOSE AAA out the side of the aircraft I wasn't looking while I was getting a talk-on out the other side of the canopy. I have also been able to perform a threat reaction off a guided SAM while my back seater simultaneously guided an LGB to the target. Being able to devote your attention to flying in scenarios where that needs 100% of your attention (threat reacting, low altitude at night or in the mountains, etc) while someone else operates the sensors is a fantastic capability.

After having been a "single seat" guy for the last 3 years and having the opportunity to see the world from the F-16, F-15C, and A-10 perspective, I will say that there is a place in the world for both types. I have benefitted greatly from being able to fly with F-16 and F-15C guys and see things from their perspective. I really think that many of those guys would benefit from flying with the F-15E camp as well.

In the Strike Eagle, the fact of the matter is that there are too many sensors for one person to run effectively while flying. Having a 2nd dude there to run those (instead of just letting them sit there doing nothing) is pretty valuable, especially when they're shootin' back at you.

All valid comments Ken, seriously.

However, my jet would have done that 4 v 4 LOWAT you mentioned (except for the HTS part, natch, but we have the targeting pod and a datalink to take its place) -- at night and on TF -- and not even broken a sweat about it.

[Ken Dwelle]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

Randy-

You can have that night low level stuff! I never flew LANTIRN, but it has to be better with two people working the problem. I imagine that a WSO is like a lot of things in life. Nothing better than a good one, nothing worse than a bad one.

Cheers -Ken

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

I was at Edwards for the SR71 retirement as well and no doubt about it, that was the most anti-climactic sonic boom I have ever heard. When I was growing up I would hear the SR71s going into or out of Beale AFB from time to time. (The joys of living in BFE, actuially about an hour north of Susanville.)
I think the Saab for sale is owned by Sacramento SAAB.

Will

[speeddemon]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

FLY NAVY!!

Yeah, amen to that, Hoss! I had to chuckle at Randy's banter, though...and I'm reminded of a conversation we had around the dinner table a couple months ago about 'multi-pilot' aircraft...and how when he was sitting in the right seat of the B-25, and the pilot called "gear"....Randy just looked at him with this 'get it yourself, dude' attitude. :-)

Kind of the flip side of when I first went flying with dad in the Navion AFTER I started flying the P-3. We were in the downwind, and I called for the flaps. My dad just laughed at me.

Its all about crew communication...but sometimes you forget where you are, and that there is a time and a place for all of it.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

Kind of the flip side of when I first went flying with dad in the Navion AFTER I started flying the P-3. We were in the downwind, and I called for the flaps. My dad just laughed at me.

Oh Gowd and I can hear the exact laugh "the dad" gave you too.. bet I can conjure up the exact look too!!!

[speeddemon]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

Oh Gowd and I can hear the exact laugh "the dad" gave you too.. bet I can conjure up the exact look too!!!

Don't you know it. I can laugh about it now, but at the time, I had just spent the last year having 'crew coordination' pounded into my head...left seat guy does this, right seat guy does that.

But yeah...you pretty much nailed it, Wayne. :-)

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

Don't you know it. I can laugh about it now, but at the time, I had just spent the last year having 'crew coordination' pounded into my head...left seat guy does this, right seat guy does that.

But yeah...you pretty much nailed it, Wayne. :-)

LOL... almost more of a "cackle" than a laugh... right??

BTW.... how is "the dad" these days??

Last time I saw him, he just wandered up one evening when we used to "camp" behind Parker's place there.. probably three of four years ago anyway..

Hope he's gonna be there this year!

Wayner

[BUD_XXX]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

I lived in west Berlin, Germany in the early sixties, and the East Germans and the Soviet block jets, flew over Berlin every day. It was very common to hear sonic booms. several could usually be heard, practically every day...

I never heard, though, of any damge occurring on the ground,....no broken windows etc....

So I guess they must have been flying pretty high....

["Race" Driver]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

Hey Randy!

My harley will do that in 3rd gear......Ha!!!! I wish...

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

REAL MEN are the ones who can do it at night, with SS 5, a quartering/shift, no light but the ball and an LSO's voice in your ear.

FLY NAVY!!

The next time the winner of a war is decided by how well you can land on a boat, our Navy is really gonna kick a$$.

Until then...

[race9]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

...our navy still kicks a$$.

[speeddemon]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

The next time the winner of a war is decided by how well you can land on a boat, our Navy is really gonna kick a$$.

Until then...

That's funny. Sounds a lot like the same thing he said to his nephew after having his head handed to him on a platter while playing "Lethal Skies" a couple months ago:

"If we ever go to war with Playstation games, you're going to kick a$$"

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

You mean like Afghanistan? No friendly bases around (at least up front) so Naval Air provided all of the strike sorties.
...

All the strike sorties were flown by the Navy? Not even close. Hmm, guess those B-1 and B-52 strikes that opened OEF didn't count, eh? F-15Es were flying strike sorties out of Al Jaber, including the longest recorded Strike Eagle mission at 14.5 hours.

More important than that, what does being able to land on a boat have to do with being capable on a strike sortie? Not at all minimizing the capes or contributions of Naval air, but to make a claim like that is just not correct.

Anyway, my point is that you can do all the chest-thumping you want about how tough it is to land on a carrier, but the fact of the matter is that wars are won in the air. Prowess in flying and fighting is what delineates the men from the boys. "Everything else," as Manfred von Richtofen said, "is rubbish."

[Blue Foam]

Re: Super Sonic question?? hey randy

... but the fact of the matter is that wars are won in the air.

The war is won when an unarmed man can stand unmolested on the disputed ground, unprotected by anything but the rule of law. Airpower alone can never achieve this.

So says the ground pounders...