What's going to happen in the future

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

My 350 cruises all day long in the neighborhood of 80MPH, 2,300 RPM, 17.7MPG. Many of these engines have reportedly run for 1000's of hours at these settings and worse..

Bigger engine (not that 350 is that big) and lower RPM's... makes for happy campers!

[440_Magnum]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

Warren_C - fantastic point! Perhaps the path needed is through experimental / air racing then on to certification?

I agree, the whole move from pushrod to DOHC wasn't necessarily on it's merits. Now the whole 3500rpm thing is confusing. I am pretty sure that engine rpm is set by reliability-performance. If you want more performance, increase rpm; more reliability, decrease rpm.

If you keep the stroke and rod length the same, then that's basically true (although performance can easily be increased at a fixed RPM by increasing BMEP, assuming the components can tolerate the higher pressures and forces). If you shorten the stroke and lengthen the rod, you can run higher RPM for the same level of stress on the main rotating assembly. The absolute WORST thing to do for long-term reliability is exactly what a lot of hot rodders used to do- "stroke" an engine heavily without switching to a taller deck block casting that allows longer rods. It makes for a non-sinusoidal piston motion with a lot of unnecessary accelerations, and also for a lot more cylinder wall wear and frictional losses because the sharp angle of a short rod puts much more pressure on the bore. This is actually a noticeable life-limiter on some older commonplace stock car engines- the Chevy 350 has a "poorer" rod ratio than the 327 and smaller versions like the 283 and 265, and until it was attacked with improved piston and ring designs the 350 was a something of a short-life engine (well, it wouldn't FAIL, but oil consumption would shoot up unacceptably much sooner in a 350 than a 327. ) Don't even get me started on the horrible Chevy 400, which is what you get by both excessively boring AND stroking a design without changing either deck height or bore center spacing.

But truth be told, technology can overcome a lot. Light short-skirt pistons that allow longer rods within the limitations of the block, better rings, and not insignificantly better lubricating oils that have hit the market since the 70s have enabled the 350 to soldier on and be very, very reliable without ever becoming the "blue smoker" that aging 350s tended to be when they first came out. And the big 427 CID smallblock GM is currently selling in the top Corvette is a siamese bore engine so over-stroked that the pistons drop down below the block casting into overhanging sleeves at bottom-dead center- something that would have been unthinkable in the days when the far less aggresively oversized 400 was a complete flop.

Now as for why I pulled 3500 RPM out of the air... In theory you can run the engine at 10,000 RPM and still swing a big prop at a happy speed. But the truth is that when the required reduction ratio gets TOO big, the reduction gearing itself gets unreliable unless you make the prop gear HUGE so that the crankshaft pinion gear doesn't get tiny, or unless you accept the penalty of extra reduction gear stages. Take a good hard look at a cutaway of most turboprops- the gearbox is a significant part of the overall package, on the order of half the total weight and volume

Frankly for the general aviation community, I think the fact that Lycs and Contis are big chugging tractor engines that don't even need any reduction gearing is a big attraction.

[mayday51]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

Warning, Danger Will Robinson!
(I just had a thought)

.....just curious,what rev range does the Falconer V-12 in the Thunder Mustang turn? (crank rpm,then prop rpm)

[ramp mouse]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

I'm a full time auto mechanic with a jappanese luxury car dealer, i'm also a part time A&P. I think aviation can learn from and adapt "auto technology" faster. Lycomings roller lifters for example that have been used in cars sincethe early 60's.The newer v-8 are all aluminum block & heads, 4 cam 4 valve with variable valve timing and produce arround 300 h-p at about the same weight as an 0-320. the motors are reliable, almost bulletproof, and lots are available.The motor will run at 6,500 all day long,the only glitch is a psru but that isn't that big of a problem.
in 15 years i have had to replace 3 engines, one went 49,000 with NO SERVICE AT ALL, still had original factory installed filter, another cracked radiator that the idiot drove until it siezed, cooled down and drove it another 13 miles, the other engine was similarly affected.
HOnda and others have had ceramic pistons and sleeves in the F-1 motors
for years, bmw is experimenting with no valve train at all, just solonoids used as valves, that's why they can rev to 21,000 and higher.
As I see it aviation is extremely slow to change, or accept, Or trust new ideas, a airplane owner at the local strip recently purchased a IO-360 for
a project and promptly removed the fuel injection, he didnt trust the new fangled injection system and installed a carb because he understood the system.
fadec is relatively new to aviation but its been in cars for about 30 years, each years cars certainly have a more capable system.
I know some of it is the certification process and the associated costs but with decreasd fuel burn more power and reliability with lower weight sure sound like a win-win propesition to me

[shadow]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

Frankly for the general aviation community, I think the fact that Lycs and Contis are big chugging tractor engines that don't even need any reduction gearing is a big attraction.

Certainly does seem to be the case huh? Less complicated, less to go wrong.

But back to the subject at hand, what about the future of air racing? New engines for the sports class, super sports class, or even unlimiteds?

You can make PSRUs with multiple gearsets. Lets assume we can have one made to support as much torque as we can generate AND that it will absorb al torsional excitation/vibration so that it will actually last. Can we take one of those huge mountain motors, destroke it, boost it, cool it with ADI, and make it last for a racing season?

Anyone have a piston speed / acceleration by rpm, stroke, and rod length calculator?

[shadow]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

I'm a full time auto mechanic with a jappanese luxury car dealer, i'm also a part time A&P. I think aviation can learn from and adapt "auto technology" faster. Lycomings roller lifters for example that have been used in cars sincethe early 60's.The newer v-8 are all aluminum block & heads, 4 cam 4 valve with variable valve timing and produce arround 300 h-p at about the same weight as an 0-320. the motors are reliable, almost bulletproof, and lots are available.The motor will run at 6,500 all day long,the only glitch is a psru but that isn't that big of a problem.
in 15 years i have had to replace 3 engines, one went 49,000 with NO SERVICE AT ALL, still had original factory installed filter, another cracked radiator that the idiot drove until it siezed, cooled down and drove it another 13 miles, the other engine was similarly affected.
HOnda and others have had ceramic pistons and sleeves in the F-1 motors
for years, bmw is experimenting with no valve train at all, just solonoids used as valves, that's why they can rev to 21,000 and higher.
As I see it aviation is extremely slow to change, or accept, Or trust new ideas, a airplane owner at the local strip recently purchased a IO-360 for
a project and promptly removed the fuel injection, he didnt trust the new fangled injection system and installed a carb because he understood the system.
fadec is relatively new to aviation but its been in cars for about 30 years, each years cars certainly have a more capable system.
I know some of it is the certification process and the associated costs but with decreasd fuel burn more power and reliability with lower weight sure sound like a win-win propesition to me

But do you believe in it enough to trust your life to it? Weird things happen in your brain when you begin to look at stuff and think of ways to minimize getting dead. All of a sudden that tried-and-true dinotech Continental is very appealing and that new, shiny, 50hp more, less gph is not so much.

Your general market is not willing to pay with their lives.

Tinkerers, racers, and all them are more likely, but even then, they are going to go with what they know.

[shadow]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

"The MARK-9 gearbox is a two-mesh, geared reduction unit. It was used by EngineAir Power Systems on their wall-forward, liquid-cooled 440HP turbocharged V8 engine package. That powerplant is currently flying on several Lancair 4-P aircraft, some with over 1000 flight hours, and installed on a variety of others still under construction."

Im fairly in the know on lancairs. I find the above statement hard to believe. can you list some examples I know of none with any significant time on them. Actually the two I know about are removed and now flying tsio 550s
dave

I did some digging, here is what I found.

"Hi Sergio,

I actually own the gearbox rights and manufacture the gearbox as well as the entire engine package. While many people out there claim they have reliable gearboxes, this is the only gearbox that has proved its mettle in the 300 HP+ class. I have more than 500 hours on my gearbox and the highest time gearbox is currently 800 hours with no wear. There has never been a single failure of the gearbox. It is reliable and safe.

Dave Morss is incorrect. Here is a list of those who have the engine and their status:

1) Flying with 500+ hours
2) Flying actively. At least 200 hours
3) Had a runway accident due to loss of brakes. At time had more than 100 hours on his engine
4) Newly completed and flying off his 40 hours.
5) Aircraft just completed. Fast taxi work being done.
6) Aircraft nearing completion.
7) Purchased Marvin May's airplane and it is being finished up.

There are several others that I've lost contact with."

I have removed names simply because I wouldn't want someone posting my name all over the internet for whoever to see. Dave if you want the names I will forward the email to you.

Edit: Sergio=me.

[morss]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

I will fall back on the advice I give people who ask me about new planes ect. Wait till you see 2 customer examples at a major fly in. Talk to the owners. The web site of the manufactures is a sales tool expect inflated claims ect.
We had a real problem with this when the first lancair 4 customer planes flew. they didnt want to go to airshows they just used the planes for high speed transportation. We had to beg for some customer planes as the public demanded to see examples before plunking down cash on our promises.
dave

[AirDOGGe]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

Update on the status of the Orenda V8 mentioned earlier in this thread:

TRACE Engines LP Purchases Orenda Program

TRACE Engines L.P. of Midland, Texas has purchased the technology rights, manufacturing equipment, FAA, Transport Canada and European aviation certifications and all worldwide manufacturing and sales rights for the Orenda 600 horsepower V-8, liquid cooled reciprocating aircraft engine. The Orenda V-8 engine garnered significant media attention several years ago, promising a new generation of high-performance piston engines. Orenda re-engineered the concept of liquid-cooled, high-output V-8 engines in turbocharged versions, for a variety of aircraft, and was designed to address the aviation industry’s requirement for a modern, cost effective reciprocating engine. The engine is fully certified and reportedly ready for production.

TRACE's typical installations will be found in singles with gross weights generally up to 6,000 lbs., and twins up to 12,500 lbs. Replacement of turbine engine designs will increase climb rates and improve performance at altitude. TRACE notes that while a turbine engine displays constant power degradation as altitude increases, the turbocharged Orenda V-8’s maintain cruise power all the way up. An equivalent turbo prop engine would need to be rated as much as 1,000 horsepower at sea level in order to match the Orenda engine’s output at altitude.'

The TRACE engine is certified on the Air Tractor 401/402 and the deHavilland DHC-3 Otter. Current OEM aircraft applications include the new Rhino Utility aircraft and the Chinese N5B Agricultural Aircraft. Some of the retrofit programs currently underway include the King Air C90, and the deHavilland DHC-2 Beaver.

[On Site Grafix]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

It seems like ingenuity wins out time and time again. The development it takes to bring modern engine technology of any type into aviation will take place if the rewards warrant it. Sometimes this happens even when it doesn't. That's what hot rodding has always been about.

I believe what it will take is to continue to nurture the publics interest in new and more frequent events. That will bring sponsors and money and that will bring spectators and vendors. The NASCAR model has worked well. It really takes a well organized marketing effort but it can be done.

What makes it great for me is the uniqueness of the sport itself and even better, the approachability of the personalities and race teams. I have found the folks around the Reno event to be almost anxious to share time and information with interested spectators. I bet I'm not the only one who appreciates this.

My one concern with the current state of affairs is that the generation of folks who love the old Warbirds is getting older and losing more than just their hair. If the sport is to have longevity, younger people need to come into it to take the cockpit and draw a younger audience. EAA Eagles are one example of a group that is doing just that.

[mayday51]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

My one concern with the current state of affairs is that the generation of folks who love the old Warbirds is getting older and losing more than just their hair. If the sport is to have longevity, younger people need to come into it to take the cockpit and draw a younger audience. EAA Eagles are one example of a group that is doing just that.

....I feel that the pilots will be available,
but who will have the knowledge behind the "wrenches" ?
I don't see a very deep pool to draw from at this moment.

[On Site Grafix]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

....I feel that the pilots will be available,
but who will have the knowledge behind the "wrenches" ?
I don't see a very deep pool to draw from at this moment.

I think that's a really serious reason to get younger folks involved. To be a truly effective wrench means not just knowing mechanics and head knowledge. Experience is a teacher for which there is no substitute. Mentoring is the key and the pool of talent that currently exists is the resource. If it's limited that makes the challenge more daunting but cream rises to the top every time.

Most people with lots of experience and knowledge like to share and that leaves an open door for those who want to learn. Finding interested students is the challenge!

[First time Juke]

New everymans class ?

I don't have chrystal ball, but to make airracing a world sport I think it means it should be approachable with less money than today..or to bring more folks around in a new everymans class.

This would possibly mean a 50-100 ccm sized engine just little bigger than a I/3 scale R/C plane or something is that league.

Planes weighing just 100 lbs and doing 100 mph at 10 feet would be also very entertaining I assume...for anyone doing it.

If they looked like something between F1 and ultralites then I think it would be it.

One could have two engines or just one.

This is of course just my humble opinion.

[Relentless]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

Maybe it is time to go back to racing amphibious aircraft like in the days of the Schneider Trophy. Races over water then offer many race venues all over the world with the spectators lining the bank/beach and in case of emergencies the aircraft can land almost anywhere.

NXT supermarine!!!

[jarrodeu]

Re: What's going to happen in the future

NXT supermarine!!!

I don't think that was drawn just for the sake of posting it in this thread. Are there plans to make it a float plane?

Jarrod