British Response?

[MarkB.]

A weird question:

Does anybody know if our friends across the pond had any reaction to the (mostly) all Sea Fury final Gold race?

Surely somewhere a pint was lifted to Sir Camm and Sir Sopwith.

[Mike51]

Re: British Response?

Not really,

You see, they all had engines that turn the wrong way.

Much better when one of those marvellous pieces of British engineering called the Rolls-Royce Merlin does the business!

[stuntflyr]

Re: British Response?

Give it a rest.

[SpinB]

Re: British Response?

Quote: (Mike51)
Much better when one of those marvellous pieces of British engineering called the Rolls-Royce Merlin does the business!

It takes Allison Rods to make a Mouse!!

It's kinda' funny, it took a British engine to make a Good one Better and an American Wright (P&W for the Buick) to make a British...pig...go Fast!

Nobody races with sleeve valves...... (OK, I've got on my asbestos scivvies on...."Ladies and Gentlemen, light your matches...."

[kiwiracefan]

Re: British Response?

Hey all, im sorry but the merlin turns the wrong way to every other british inline, the dehavilland gypsy to the rolls royce eagle including, the centarus, Hercules radials and single prop griffons all turned the opposite way to the merlin, even the R engine that the merlin was developed from. many pilots getting out of merlin spitfires and getting into Griffon Spitfires without contra props wrecked airplanes because of the opposite turns, infact many pilots getting into other airplanes had problems because the merlin turned opposite to everything else. That very factor was the primary cause in the crash of NZ warbird collector sir tim wallis. Sir Tim had approx 200hrs in the merlin spitfire XVI but he also had a Griffon engined MK XIV n he had considerably less hrs in teh mk XIV and he set the trims wrong on take off and nearly lost his life because the torque pretty much flipped it on its wing. the only reason Sir Tim is alive is because he was wearing a Bone Dome instead of his cloth helmet. but to summarise, the merlin is the odd engine out.
Also, the Sea Fury was not a pig, yes the sleeve valve radial needs extremely careful managment, but the aircraft is not a pig. Let me put this question to you, Did the Corsair/Mustang get a Air to Air Victory over a mig 15 in korea, the sea fury got at least 3,
Yes i am a sea fury fan

[440_Magnum]

Re: British Response?

A weird question:

Does anybody know if our friends across the pond had any reaction to the (mostly) all Sea Fury final Gold race?

Surely somewhere a pint was lifted to Sir Camm and Sir Sopwith.

Well, the list of Reno winners that were NOT a mix of American and British parts is pretty darn short! All the Mustangs had Merlins (OK, except Polar Bear). All the recent Sea Furies have Wright or P&W power.

Rare Bear and Conquest 1 were "pure yank" but not exactly as they left the Grumman ironworks.... I'm not as up on old Reno history, but I know that there were Centaurs Sea Furies that did pretty well back in the day, so they were "pure Brit."

[MarkB.]

Re: British Response?

Thanks, guys

I just figured that the British press'es tendency to play up the least British accomplishment as a triumph of the Empire might have taken effect.

And yes I think the Sea Fury with the flame job (don't know the name of it) did well in the late Sixties and it had the original sleeve-valve engine and the five bladed prop. Whatever happened to that plane?

And I am a Sea Fury/Yak/Corsair/Mustang/Spitfire/Thunderbolt/Bearcat/Tempest/Focke-Wulf fan.

[Jay]

Re: British Response?

Lets not forget a Yak 11, with a P&W R2800, in 3rd place.

[Mike51]

Re: British Response?

Did the Corsair/Mustang get a Air to Air Victory over a mig 15 in korea, the sea fury got at least 3,

Actually, it is credited with one victory (Peter Carmichael). The facts about that one are somewhat dubious, to say the least. There was an interesting piece in Aeroplane Monthly magazine a few years back by Ellis, one of the pilots involved, telling basically the same story as he told on a visit to Duxford to see the Sea Fury under restoration there for TFC.

[Victor Archer]

Re: British Response?

Quote: (Mike51)
Much better when one of those marvellous pieces of British engineering called the Rolls-Royce Merlin does the business!

It takes Allison Rods to make a Mouse!!

It's kinda' funny, it took a British engine to make a Good one Better and an American Wright (P&W for the Buick) to make a British...pig...go Fast!

Nobody races with sleeve valves...... (OK, I've got on my asbestos scivvies on...."Ladies and Gentlemen, light your matches...."

You have no clue as to what you are talking about! Comments like yours are just a waste of everyones time and are not needed on this board.

[Manonthefence]

Re: British Response?

I just figured that the British press'es tendency to play up the least British accomplishment as a triumph of the Empire might have taken effect.

Sadly the British Warbird press largly ignores Reno, the mainstream daily press doesnt have a clue.

That said if you were to pick up a copy of the next issue of Todays Pilot Magazine in the UK I am lead to believe that there are a couple of pages of shots by someone not a million miles away from this post

[tdecibel]

Re: British Response?

Mr. Archer,

In deference to your skills as an air-race photographer and as an insightful contributer to this message board, I am rather disturbed by your comments that SpinB's post is not welcome here.

As I interpret SpinB's post:

1. The P-51( a Good one) was made (better) by a British engine(true!).

2. A "pig" of an aircraft, a Hawker Sea-Fury, which had never had real success as an air-racer with it's Bristol Centaurus engine, was transformed into a winner with a well prepared(slow-nose) R-3350. Dreadnaught has always been a contender in case the mustangs broke, but September Fury is the first real 500mph Sea-Fury alternative to the fast mustangs and Rare Bear.

I've been lurking long enough( since 1997!!, I'm shy about posting). I cannot stand any more flame-wars. Participants in this forum need to read the posts completely and accurately, and compose your responses thoughtfully and with consideration.

[440_Magnum]

Re: British Response?

Thanks, guys

And yes I think the Sea Fury with the flame job (don't know the name of it) did well in the late Sixties and it had the original sleeve-valve engine and the five bladed prop. Whatever happened to that plane?

n.

Miss Merced. She was back at Reno after an R-3350 conversion and restoration in the Sanders' shop, and a new flame job (excellent replica of the original, save for a different colored spinner) a few years ago, piloted/owned by Stephen Bolander. Last I heard she was up for sale again.

Lloyd Hamilton's "Baby Gorilla" always made a good showing with its Centaurus engine as well. So did Frank Sanders' Sea Fury (which, if I remember right, now wears a 3-digit race number, has a 3350, and a flame job of its own )

JMHO, but there's not a darn thing wrong with the Centaurus, other than its harder to support and rebuild than the R3350-26WD which is so common because it was the Skyraider engine. There were lots of wartime troubles with *Napier* sleeve-valve engines (especially the Sabre) and if I recall my history right the British government stepped in and basically asked Bristol to help Napier make sleeve valves work because there was a war on, and they did.

I'm sure the resident geeks ^H^H^H^H^H historians will correct my facts where I've wandered astray.... I'm just spouting from memory so please DO correct me if I'm wrong.


Edit:

Been Googlin' Miss Merced while eating lunch (sounds naughty, doesn't it?)

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/furyregistry/fury-wg567.html

And a number of pictures of her sometime since '99:

http://www.daisey-designs.com/nx13688/merced/missmerced.htm

I remember reading articles here or on the old Pylon1 site from when she was in the Sanders' shop about the same time that September Fury was first being resurrected. In one picture when she was more or less a bare shell, someone had written "Mottnought" on her cowl in Sharpie (former owner was Jim Mott, and everything around the Sanders shop seems to get tagged XXX-nought or XXX-naut at one time or another)

[speeddemon]

Re: British Response?

Miss Merced. She was back at Reno after an R-3350 conversion and restoration in the Sanders' shop, and a new flame job (excellent replica of the original, save for a different colored spinner) a few years ago, piloted/owned by Stephen Bolander. Last I heard she was up for sale again.

Lloyd Hamilton's "Baby Gorilla" always made a good showing with its Centaurus engine as well. So did Frank Sanders' Sea Fury (which, if I remember right, now wears a 3-digit race number, has a 3350, and a flame job of its own )

JMHO, but there's not a darn thing wrong with the Centaurus, other than its harder to support and rebuild than the R3350-26WD which is so common because it was the Skyraider engine. There were lots of wartime troubles with *Napier* sleeve-valve engines (especially the Sabre) and if I recall my history right the British government stepped in and basically asked Bristol to help Napier make sleeve valves work because there was a war on, and they did.

I'm sure the resident geeks ^H^H^H^H^H historians will correct my facts where I've wandered astray.... I'm just spouting from memory so please DO correct me if I'm wrong.

The problem with the Bristol Centaurus is that when it was run at high rpm, the valves had a tendency to start swapping the sleeves. This is exactly what happened when Sherm Cooper had his 'monster power' run at Reno '71 in the Championship race. The very next time he put power to the engine (during qualifying at Mojave next month), the engine seized.

I would have to take a look at the 'geek' records to find out what the fastest speed turned in by a Centaurus-powered Sea Fury was...but my guess is it wasn't much faster than Coopers 412 mph average in '71.

Most of the other Centaurus Furies (specifically Baby Gorilla) always managed to finish...but rarely at those speeds.

[440_Magnum]

Re: British Response?

The problem with the Bristol Centaurus is that when it was run at high rpm, the valves had a tendency to start swapping the sleeves. This is exactly what happened when Sherm Cooper had his 'monster power' run at Reno '71 in the Championship race. The very next time he put power to the engine (during qualifying at Mojave next month), the engine seized.

I would have to take a look at the 'geek' records to find out what the fastest speed turned in by a Centaurus-powered Sea Fury was...but my guess is it wasn't much faster than Coopers 412 mph average in '71.

Most of the other Centaurus Furies (specifically Baby Gorilla) always managed to finish...but rarely at those speeds.

The high RPM problem is a little bit of an irony, because sleeve valves theoretically are capable of *higher* RPM... of course in practice there's a lot of mass to move, two gas-sealing interfaces instead of one, keeping both the outside of the sleeve and the piston skirt lubricated, etc. etc.

I would be curious to see the highest speeds of a Centaurus Sea Fury, if you do get to look them up. I know they were never really gold contenders (unless others broke). I'd like to know how they compare to the basic 3350 convsrions, not the more elaborate ones like Spirit of Texas with the cowl intake, or Fury with the unique exhust ejectors. Southern Cross might be an apt comparison. I'd also love to know more about what racing mods were applied to the Centaurus back in those days, if any. If there weren't many, then a Centaurus Sea Fury compares pretty favorably to a stock or near-stock Mustang, it seems to me.

I suspect that another advantage the Wright brings to the Sea Fury is its superior cylinder head cooling, which allows the spinner/cowl gap to be closed *way* tighter than anyone ever did with a Centaurus and thereby get rid of a lot of drag. I don't know if anyone really tried to close the cowl up tighter with the Centaurus or not, but I'm sure the Wright can live with substantially less air flow over the heads. And also, the Centaurus needs airflow a bit further down the cylinders from the heads proper because of where the hot gasses exit due to the sleeve valves, which also is at odds with closing up that gap.