Dreadnought notes...

[wingman]

Here is a crop from a shot during the Gold on Sunday -- so running at about 450 or so.

Three things jump out for me:

There is no obvious twisting of the cowling. The Bear in particular, but also most round motor Gold runners exhibit what looks like as much as 4-5 inches of twist at Gold power settings. What's different about the Buick in this regard?

Everyone always talks about Dreadnought fit and finish, but the (unfilled) wing shows quite a lot of distortion and bulging of panels, access doors etc. Some stuff bulges out some bulges in. Just how much drag might this produce at speed?

As in so very many Sea Fury at speed photos, the step is half open. Is this thing spring loaded, or manually opened and closed, or what? I have shots of Sea Furies taxiing, landing and taking off, and at speed with this step open. Is there no way to ensure that it is closed in the air?

And, a couple of questions: What is the dark square at the wing root toward the trailing edge? And, what are the small projections about a quarter of the way from the wing leading edge behind the wing air intakes? 232 has them too, so they must be important...

Matt does look comfortable, doesn't he.

Neal

[Mluvara]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

The square near the trailing edge is a step for getting up onto the wing.

I believe the cowl twists like the others, but is not as obvious to see in this view. Look at the little aero fairing at the wing/cowl intersection if you have any head on shots.

The step mechanisms on the Sea Fury are quite interesting works of machinery. Because I was standing around and had longer arms, I helped Steve Patterson's crew chief put the spring back on the pull down step on the bottom of the fuse. It's spring loaded, so possibly the one at the cockpit is too.

Michael

[wingman]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

So is the dark square in place of a wing walk, or just a reinforced spot, or what? Is it just part of the skin?

I have pictures of that pull down step hanging down too...

I still really don't see any cowling twist at all.

Neal

[Mluvara]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

The "plate" step on the wing is hinged at the rear and when you step on it, it hinges down to a more level position so that you can get up onto the wing. I imagine with G force and a little air, the step doesn't have a chance at staying flush.

Not sure on the cowl twist. I haven't looked at Dreadnought's cowl setup that close, but I believe it's the same as the 3350's where the cowl is attached to the motor.

Michael

[sierra fox]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

If you look closely at the cowl you can see some mis-alignment from the torque.

The step and handle from the rear seat are "finally" taped shut. Brian always fussed over pulling the doors shut from the backseat (there's a handle on the side panels to do so) and every shot ive seen of her, the doors are open.

[sierra fox]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Here's another shot showing some buckle on the fuse

[speeddemon]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

A lot of the newer people may not know or remember, but after Dead-not's win with Rick at the controls back in 1986, the Sanders team was going to convert her to a single-seat racer with a tiny bubble canopy (ala 232), and put the old Miss Merced wingtips on her...which ultimately went to Eric Lorentzen for use on Blind Man's Bluff.

The thought certainly was tantalyzing at the time...and I've always been a bit sorry that they never took it to the next level. But as I recall, Bruce Boland was the one who put the kaibosh on the idea when he told Papa Frank that putting the clipped wingtips on would slow the plane down by about 15 mph.

That Boland guy...what the hell did HE know, anyway???? :-)

As much as I liked the idea of a 'racing' Dreadnought, I guess in retrospect I'm glad they kept it the way it is. There is just something classy about that airplane. Would be interesting, though, to see how much speed she could pick up if they gave her the 'Kerch' treatment on the wings.

[wingman]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Thanks for the replies.

Michael, I finally understand the functioning of the wing step. Since my last post, I went digging and did this crop of another image from the Gold. And, in fact, it does not stay closed. Seems odd that in a dedicated racer, this thing was never just skinned over and sealed up. I've always been told that every half mile an hour helps...

When I think about it, I've never been up on a Sea Fury wing or in the cockpit of one! A lack of experience I guess I'll have to rectify some time.

Sirrra Fox -- I have shots from the fence from several years ago that also show the wrinkling, but not as extensively as yours. Impressive, isn't it.

Neal

[sierra fox]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

In the mid-90's the wing had a filler treatment over the outboard section of the wings and we did some ginding and re-filling where there were some stress cracks. The filler was 1/4" thick and thicker in some areas.

This wasnt a "Kerch" treatement obviously but it looks as though the filler has since been removed. Can anyone confirm this?

This may be a dumb question but, does anyone know what the Kerch treatment is?

Anthony

[Wilnit]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

I don't remember where I saw it, but someone posted some nice pics of Fury's "torque" and twisting of the cowl.... Same thing, very interesting topic. I wish someone could post those pics again of September Fury...

WRL

[wingman]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Anthony, that's a real good question. I remember posts here when Kerch first started working on 232 very authoritatively talking about the wing especially getting "the Kerch treatment". Nobody ever said what this was, but the implication was that it is something pretty special.

I suspect that Bill would have a good laugh if you asked him about this. What he says he does is mostly just make things work right, know what you have at that point, and start doing little changes. Then you have a proper ongoing test program so you know what your changes are doing.

You do lots of research, and ask lots of questions. Bill has a whole network of "engineers and Professors" who take an interest in his work and help with his ideas.

Most of all you think about what you're doing and why you're doing it. There's a story he loves to tell, that dates from the late 1980s. Bill had always been bothered by the airflow around the flap-aileron junction on a Mustang wing. He installed a little fence there and loved the results. A competitor thought this was a great idea, and did the same. Unfortunately for the competitor, he just tacked on the little fence without thinking it through. What Kerch had done (as I remember) was to take off some metal from the flap and add to the aileron to put the fence parallel to the airflow, because the flap is rectangular and the edge is at an angle to the airflow. The competitor actually had put the fence on in such a way as to add drag, because the fence was parallel to the original edge of the flap, and not parallel to the airflow.

So I suspect what Bill does to wings is primarily to use filler and paint to have a smooth unbroken surface as close to the theoretical ideal for that wing as possible, and then fiddle with details to improve things a bit at a time. On Mustangs I've been told there are some subtle things one can do with filler around the gear doors on the underside of the wing to make the air move a little better, but I don't know the details of this.

Now what I do wonder is, if a good bare metal or painted wing has all these subtle distortions at speed -- panels and access doors bulging and changing as we see in the Dreadnought shot above, why are all these things not still happening with a filled and smoothed wing, and simply taking the paint and filler with them? Is the Strega or September Fury wing reinforced somehow to stop the bulging and distortion? And, at what point are the improvements from all this filll and paint and perhaps subtle reshaping negated by the added weight? Seems like I remember Bob Button talking in an interview about removing all the filler from the Voodoo wing this year to see what the results would be (plus apparently they were having trouble with deteriorating and delaminating filler?). So how thick and heavy is all this stuff added to the wing surface? How does one measure everything on all these curved surfaces to get the ideal profile?

So I suspect that all these details and all this thought are really "the Kerch treatment". Anybody know anything more specific than my vague musings???

Neal

[speeddemon]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Nope, that's pretty close, Neal. Bondo, bondo, and more and more bondo.

Apply, sand. Apply, sand. Apply, sand. Apply, sand. Apply, sand. Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand. Apply, sand. Apply, sand. Apply, sand. Apply, sand. Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.Apply, sand.



And finally, after the floor of your hangar looks like a fine sand beach, you apply some more and sand.

I think it was put out by the team that the reason they didn't bother to paint the wings on 232 red this year was because they KNEW the filler was going to crack, and therefore, they just left it in primer so they could go back over the winter again and do it all over again.

The other side of the house, of course, was my old buddy Ralph who's mantra was "I don't believe in bondo". So he just did it all with shims from the inside.

Oh well.....

[wingman]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Another thought...

Kerch has never actually built a Racer. Sumthin Else, Strega, Dago, and Septmber Fury were all established purpose built Racers when they came into his care. He just seems to have a genius for taking a Racer that's almost there, and really just making it work, and work reasonably consistently.

The perfect crew chief...

[speeddemon]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Another thought...

Kerch has never actually built a Racer. Sumthin Else, Strega, Dago, and Septmber Fury were all established purpose built Racers when they came into his care. He just seems to have a genius for taking a Racer that's almost there, and really just making it work, and work reasonably consistently.

The perfect crew chief...

Except for Tipsy Miss.........

[wingman]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Ah, how could I forget about the Drunken Lady!

Kerch has some great Jack Sandberg stories...

So was Bill part of this project from its beginning?

And, a quick quiz question: (Open only to newbies -- those whose first Reno was 1991 or later, please!). How did this Racer get her odd name??

Neal