Dreadnought notes...

[BKB]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Tipsy Miss ran on Methanol. Basically alcohol. Thus the name.
The nose art is a minor give away. My first Reno was 96.

Brian

[wingman]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

And we have a (very quick) winner. Well done Brian! Unfortunately you get no prize, except that we're all very impressed!

As I remember, the alcohol idea never worked out too well, and they eventually switched over to gasoline.

So Brian, after a decade at the races do you still feel like a newbie??

[BKB]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Wingman-

Don't feel like a newbie at the Races but.......................................... reading some of the info and stories posted here ,I sure do.
I wish I had started going to Reno sooner. There are a lot of great planes I wish I could have seen.(Tsunami,Red Baron)
And the classic Strega,Bear battles over the years.
Don't get me wrong,I have seen some great planes and races.I was on the ramp by the VP fuel truck when Skip flew his nads off in 2003. It was awesome.I really like the cockpit video that is circulating around now.
It just seems as though it is getting too expensive for the racers to field full race prepped planes.
There is just something about the sound big round or inline motor that just cannot be replaced.
If I had a dream race it would be to have Strega,The Bear,Dago (with Skip),Tsunami(with Skip),September Fury,The Red Baron,Conquest(with Greenameyer,and MAII at its full potential.Run an 8 lap Gold race.All combatants running at their historical best.Wouldn't that be something?

Brian

[Mluvara]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Kerch has some great Jack Sandberg stories...

Yeah.. ask him how many engines he changed in a year on the airplane. I understand there were wagers going around the airport on how long each one would last.

Michael

[stuntflyr]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

They were "Sandgrenades"!
Chris...

[440_Magnum]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

People talked about how clean (in the literal sense- not the aero sense) 232 always was after a run this year, but Dreadnought looks even cleaner. I see one little oil streak on the left wing there... AMAZING when you've got 28 jugs all trying to leak. And the contrast with the old Furias engines is absolutely unbelievable.

I also would be curious to see just how much is left in Dreadnought if she had the kind of aero cleanup that 232 has had. Of course it would make her a lot less Buick-like (higher maintenance), so its probably not worth it. I still think its so cool that they just bring that thing and run it with very little "special" preparation, and it always runs near the front.

[Leo]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

I don't think I've ever seen Dread dirty after a race. Maybe something to do with how hard the engines are running (3350 vs. 4360)?
I think the "clean" comes from years of Bear experience where running hard meant gallons of oil on the plane. I don't pretend to know what causes the difference in two similiar engines. Are the engine marks THAT different? A totally different way of setting them up, clearances and such?

[stuntflyr]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

I think after all these years seeing the Bearcat run with a bit of oil mixed with the exhaust it can be ascertained that the clearances are a bit more open than other operator's engines. I think it is a philophosy of the engine builder's, namely George Baird/Bill Jones and company who built the most powerful 3350 for the Bearcat, and using a program over 30 some years long. Those that now follow are maybe trying to use these numbers.

The guys that are building the engine for Mike Brown are now getting good results from their numbers, however it wasn't always that way.

I can remember a 4360 in the Corsair that locked up under power because it was built too tight. I think it was Johnny's first year racing it.

When the Bearcat engine was using NOS (new "0" time old stock) cylinders in the late eighties/early nineties of the DeBoar sponsorship, the engine seemed to run a little cleaner. However, it also ran just as clean with some of the NOS "Alameda Racing Engines" (surplus Navy overhauls). This makes one wonder how long the engine can run cleanly, in operating hours, before enough wear will cause an increase in visual oil exhausted out of the stacks. Of course there were years when the new engine sprayed oil until it got some time on it and was broken in.

Perhaps there is still a supply of NOS cylinders on P&W engines, and this could be a reason for even and optimum oil control on Dreadnought. One thing is sure, the Sanders have a knack for keeping their 4360's running pretty clean. This looks especially so.

Chris...

[440_Magnum]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

I don't think I've ever seen Dread dirty after a race. Maybe something to do with how hard the engines are running (3350 vs. 4360)?
I think the "clean" comes from years of Bear experience where running hard meant gallons of oil on the plane. I don't pretend to know what causes the difference in two similiar engines. Are the engine marks THAT different? A totally different way of setting them up, clearances and such?

I know that historically the Wright 3350 was called an "oil-loving" engine. There's often some comment about it in captions of vintage pictures of a bunch of Skyraiders with black stripes down the side, or Lockheed Constellations with black-streaked nacelles. I think it was always just more of an oil-burner than most P&W engines, for whatever reason (ring design, oil scavenging, could be lots of things).

The stock 4360 was pretty oil-hungry too, its just the nature of large radials. But I recall reading that Dreadnought uses cam-ground pistons and a ring package based on a diesel engine ring set, and I imagine that's a huge part of the reason she's so clean. Even with loose clearances, some piston ring designs are much better at controlling oil ('scraping' the cylinder walls) than others. There are also new piston alloys that don't expand nearly as much as older alloys and can be fitted tighter in the bores, but they have their drawbacks too. They tend to be brittle, and there seems to be a much finer knife-edge between "too loose" and "oops, too tight and she seized up at full power!" with hypereutectic pistons (at least in the automotive world- I don't know if any air racers have used them or not).

[Leo]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Thanks guys! It all makes sense. I used to have a similiar issue with an old Yamaha. Even for a 2 stroke it used a lot of oil. When I tried to solve this with a tighter piston clearance it would seize anytime it got hot. I tried a lot of different combinations of piston and rings before I ended up right back where I started.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

I won't go into a lot of the details on the 3350, But I will say that we tried a Simplex ring package for the engine in either 1985 or 1986, I can't remember right now. The engine in the bear used less than a half gallon between Van Nuys and Reno, The outside was very pristine just like what you see on the side of Dreadnought, the plugs were cleaner and we were all very happy with the results. A phone call with Charlie Thompson, who used to be "the" factory representative for Curtiss Wright on the R-3350 got the response "don't go over 50 inches MAP with those rings !" The crew chief at the time elected "NOT" to pass that information on to the pilot or the owner, but instead put together an engine break-in program to be run around the course at Reno early in race week. At the first attempt to go above 50 inches within a half lap it burned the rear master rod piston resulting in a may day. A Stock Alameda R3350-26WD was purchased from Frank Sanders and put on the airplane for the races. Part of the smoke you see from the Rare Bear is indeed oil, part of what you see coming off the bear is a rich mixture. Old timers on the crew can tell when the balance is right. In my opinion it will never be as dry as Dreadnought, but should never be as wet as in retrospect what I have seen from this past year in pictures. I don't want to go back to mud slinging about this year and turn this thread ugly, so please lets not throw any rocks.

[Leo]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

Definately please no rocks!
This has become a very informative thread.

[speeddemon]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

At the first attempt to go above 50 inches within a half lap it burned the rear master rod piston resulting in a may day. A Stock Alameda R3350-26WD was purchased from Frank Sanders and put on the airplane for the races.

That would have been 1986. But you still at least made the final that year.

GOD, I am such a geek!

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

That would have been 1986. But you still at least made the final that year.

GOD, I am such a geek!

From one geek to another you are right on both counts, LOL

[Leo]

Re: Dreadnought notes...

GOD, I am such a geek!

Sometimes the posts on this board scare me...
Not one of us can EVER make fun of the Trekkies...