Superbore Sport Class

[GeeBeeZ1931]

While at the NAR at Reno this fall I was talking to one of the reps from Lycoming in their tent about the 8 cyls they had on display and decrying the small cid limit that the sport class has to live with when he told me that there was to be a new Superbore 1000 inch Sport Class. Being an official rep from an engine company I have to believe that this is true and expert knowledge.

I would like to see if any one else knows anything about this and when it is supposed to be instituted.

Bill Kohler

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

I personally along with other would like to see a 1000 cubic inch Unlimited "lights" (I stole that description from a conversation I had with Kerch). The class would be open to either mass produced kits or original one off designs, There would be no requirement to make mandatory kits as part of the rules. The basic rules would stem from unlimited class safety considerations, and then be 1000 cubic inch engine limit, whether it be one, or multiple.

The really rare parts that are required for the unlimited engines of today are dwindling, and reproduction of some of those parts would be equal to complete funding of experimental racing projects with a 1000 CID limit. I think the future of air racing has got to move away from destroying the remaining stock of Merlins and Wright and Pratt & Whitney radials. An effort needs to be started towards a class to replace the unlimited class as it is now, so that when the time arrives that nobody wants to expend the cash and parts to race in that arena the new class will have some time under it's belt.

[laminar]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Now I don't know much, and don't like starting rumours, but the hairs on the back of my neck stood up there for a second thinking that kerch might be thinking about wrenchin on a sport, or atleast not an unlimited. Not to help this thing snowball but man o man would that be good for the class. I guess he made the move from inline to radial, its all small steps from there.

heres to sustainable air racing


Pumped face!
Lam

[Mluvara]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Kerch has long advocated for a 777 cu/in (or something close to that) unlimited class. There's a big gap between unlimited and sport class right now in that one can't really innovate with new designs unless they kit them. There's quite a few people that would build sport class aircraft if they didn't have to be kits. Certainly would be interesting.

Michael

[speeddemon]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Luvara Johnson is correct!

Wayne might be able to go WAAAY back in the archives on AAFO, but at one time there was an interview that he and Kallio did with Kerch in the mid-late '80's where he talked about such a class, and how he would like to see a Mojave-like distance race for it.

[Peashooter]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Luvara Johnson is correct!

Wayne might be able to go WAAAY back in the archives on AAFO, but at one time there was an interview that he and Kallio did with Kerch in the mid-late '80's where he talked about such a class, and how he would like to see a Mojave-like distance race for it.

Talk about driving innovation! Only war or racing can drive it --short of threats of government regulation... Time for a twin 500 CID big-block mixmaster racer! Time to dust off the Mach Buster and GP-V!

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Luvara Johnson is correct!

Wayne might be able to go WAAAY back in the archives on AAFO, but at one time there was an interview that he and Kallio did with Kerch in the mid-late '80's where he talked about such a class, and how he would like to see a Mojave-like distance race for it.

http://www.aafo.com/racing/people/kerch.htm

Bear in mind, this was before the sport class was formed!

Yea, he's got vision allright!

[SpinB]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Talk about driving innovation! Only war or racing can drive it --short of threats of government regulation... Time for a twin 500 CID big-block mixmaster racer! Time to dust off the Mach Buster and GP-V!

I'm down with a 1/2 or 3/4 scale Do-335!!!!!!! Somebody please......hell for that matter a full-size replica.........i can dream..can't i.......

[Bill Marsh]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Bell Cobra et al
Have heard the "last V12 on earth" sinerio for 25 years or so.


Racers compete, period.

The venue they choose is there own deal.

They pay there own way.

Grinding machinery to dust isnt breaking any laws.

When the $ is too high to do the deal, then the sport class will be the new deal and not a second sooner.

We (i guest most of us anyway) are just emotional whitnesses on the sidelines looking in.

Maybe in 15 or 20 so years, we will all come up for air and say the same thing , again.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Bell Cobra et al
Have heard the "last V12 on earth" sinerio for 25 years or so.


Racers compete, period.

Bill,
While you are correct in that the last V12 on earth scenario has been heard for many years. Take it from someone that has stood on top of the pile and looked down many years ago and in recent years, the quality of parts that it takes to make race engines, not -7 or -9 engines but race engines is very limited. When these parts are gone thats the show. There nine total 988TC18EA2 Nose cases for the R-3350 left. There are some more on a three Constellations back east but from what we've been told the rust on the "forged steel prop shafts" is way in excess of what we would use on race power engine, based on Curtiss Wright service limits for an engine of only 3850 HP. Rare Bear had last three known brand new prop shafts for these engines and the last one was used in 1990. When these are gone there is no more Rare Bear or September Fury super engines.

Please don't take this as me pretending to be all knowing, that is not my intention. I just might have a different perspective on this from my experiences, there are still some good and rarely some great parts showing up. For the most part the really good stuff that is left is not the race type parts. Just to add in to this line of thought even Dwight Thorn whom I am sure you would consider a racer thinks we have hit the end of the pile.

I meant my original post as an opening to consider what parameters should be looked at if an "Unlimited" class with a cubic inch limit was developed. I certainly did not mean to start another thread where everybody beats up on one another.

The new class could bring in new blood, innovative blood. the new class could be designed to compliment a growth structure more along the lines of really good talent from Formula one (that is a very big pool of real innovation) moving up to the Sport class in competition and then the new pinnacle would be the CID Restricted Unlimited class. It allows for development of skills in direction that may surprise you and others.

Thanks for your time, one other issue is how to create a timeline for the introduction of a new class? How do you get Reno to buy off on a new class? How do you do this without losing the Bi-planes in the mix? maybe by reducing the air show and getting down to more "air racing".

[speeddemon]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Bill,
Thanks for your time, one other issue is how to create a timeline for the introduction of a new class? How do you get Reno to buy off on a new class? How do you do this without losing the Bi-planes in the mix? maybe by reducing the air show and getting down to more "air racing".

You know, John...I've thought of reducing the air show portion for a LONG time. And the answer I keep coming back to is, there has to be a break or separation between the races to launch, recover, and stage the various aircraft. And if you look at the schedule, for the most part, there is rarely more than one act between races. Its just that there are now SO MANY heat races for so many classes over the course of the day, if you stick an airshow act between each race, it makes it SEEM like the airshow schedule is top heavy.

I'm sure YOU remember the days at Reno when there was only ONE Unlimited race per day. The Bronze was on Friday, Silver on Saturday, and the Gold race on Sunday...and that was it. Or in '79, when there were only TWO classes racing. THOSE were years where the airshow schedule was overloaded.

But I don't know if you COULD knock out any airshow acts without effecting the staging and running of the races inbetween.

Just my .02.

[Peashooter]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Initially, the 1,000 CID goup could become the Sport Gold. That could happen next year. Eventually, the 1K guys get their own class, but not till the numbers are sufficient. (Several years out.) By then, perhaps they drop Unlimited Bronze as the unlimited ranks dwindle. (if they do)

A huge concern with custom one-off race planes is how to manage safety. Maybe the airframe has to have a minimum number of hours and can demonstrate required maneuvers, etc. before it can race to prove that it can live safely in the race environment and not be a threat to its pilot, other competitors, the fans or the communities over which it flies.

I am excited about the prospects for innovation in airframe, powerplant, etc.

[Jay]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

With all those IO540's & IO550's out there and the recent addition of IO580, I would hope it would be 1200 cubic inch or so to include twins of most all available/popular engines, including twin Falconers.

[Bill Marsh]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

JS

This is an extremely tiny air-race world. In seeing racing jandras (sp?) come and go, this community is at extreme risk at loosing its momentum IMHO

To survive, a community of resources needs to exisit . This is a classic problem statement that needs a "center" to survive and it should have started yesterday.

Same ol' same ol' should continue for the people who can risk, but the synergy of change, even acting like a business of sorts to direct the sacttered resources is paramount

Is this aafo site a clearing house for real convergence and change?

BM

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

JS

This is an extremely tiny air-race world. In seeing racing jandras (sp?) come and go, this community is at extreme risk at loosing its momentum IMHO

Bill I'll take your points one by one if you don't mind and agree with this first point.

To survive, a community of resources needs to exisit . This is a classic problem statement that needs a "center" to survive and it should have started yesterday.

Once again your assesment of the situation is in my opinion correct except I have liked this idea of a CID limited Unlimited class for more than ten years. In early 1997 I was invited as a speaker at Minnesota Sport Aviation Conference, happily for my then fiance Melody and myself we were lucky enough to have dinner with John and Tricia Sharp. At that time John was already thinking about "after Formula 1" and we shared ideas for quite awhile. in my opinion we should have been working on this long ago.

Same ol' same ol' should continue for the people who can risk, but the synergy of change, even acting like a business of sorts to direct the sacttered resources is paramount

Once again I agree and I am not advocating the outlaw of unlimited class warbird racing, I am just talking about creating a new class that when fully developed will probably give speeds that will give those of today a run for their money. look what Formula one and the sport class do now within their limits. Yes at the beginning there will probably be alliances that will disolve as the level of competition grows and there will be closed groups that will not share anything. But that also is racing.

Is this aafo site a clearing house for real convergence and change?
BM

Is that part of what you want it to be? If it is then I am sure Wayne would support that effort with a thread section of it's own. In the higher level exchange of ideas the bashing into silence of those more thought challenged can not be tolerated because every body gets lucky once in a while. So toss out some parameters and let the debate begin. 1000 CID, 777 CID, 1200 CID. Race lengths miles vs. time limits, 30 minutes vs. 250 mile runs on pylon courses. I fear that if those of us with an interest in where this boat is going don't attempt to navigate then those like Red Bull will attempt to navigate the sport to their liking instead of pure speed. And is that what the masses are interested in. Personally I like figure skating but can't stand the scoring, I like speed because it gives you something with substance to become the winner.