Superbore Sport Class

[Peashooter]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Personally I like figure skating but can't stand the scoring.

Same here. This is my kid: http://www.sharkle.com/video/112343/

She did skate Regionals to the new scoring system this year, which helps her and is 60-70% better vs. the French judge "doing" the Russian judge a few years back -- as long as she lands BOTH double axels after her triple-toe! She missed the second axel, so missed the top-four cut to move on by one -- aaaargh!

http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_related_details.asp?ri=content/events/200607/regionals-egl/juniorladies-free.htm

Back to the thread at hand: I think a very competitive 1K CID class would go a long way to pushing gen-av to the next level of performance -- and safety. Homebuilts have slowly turned the market from 60-year old spam cans to newer glass slippers, with the Cirrus the top-seller for three years now, and it has a glass cockpit and a BRS system. What if it spurred development of a high-speed BRS for racers. Current BRS systems are speed-limited, but a phased deployment could mean that the guy who's wandered into a really bad overspeed condition in icing or t-storms could still pull the magic handle and live to talk about it, instead of boring a hole in the gound after disintegrating in midair.

Look what safety regs have done for drag racing and oval racing. There are still some deaths, but compared to what Swede Savage went through back in '77 at Indy, today's harrowing accidents normally result in "cuts & bruises".

The great news is that the engine guys are "all-in" at Reno already. From Lycoming focusing on new tech for old engines (and a diesel on display last year) to Thielert/Superior actaully in as a team sponsor, we could be on the cusp of some amazing development, "makes racing" and new racing excitement. Heck, the Sport Gold guys are pretty damn sexy right now, as they turn pylon #8 at full chat!

A highly developed 1K class might even ease the pain of losing unlimiteds in the long run. As John said, "the pile of parts is dwindling".

Perhaps it's the dawning of the "Platinum Age" of air racing. Peas

(Insert picture of Folkerts Jupiter and NXT nose-to-nose here!)

[gp70442]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

And is that what the masses are interested in.

DEFINITELY not this mass. I'd rather watch paint dry than get screamed at by that group.
GP

[gorace71]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Sports if finally getting enough interest to get the Rockets to the bottom of the Silver. There are about 6 to 9 ships out there than can exceed 320 MPH in the Gold. This year there were three ships who could have won and two that should have been closer.

Next year there will be two or three more in the can win Sports category.

So now is not the time to dilute the effort and go with a 1,000 CI class. AT best, that class might have five airplanes in two years, two of which could win and rest are just flying.

Ask (or please don't ask) Nemisis what it really costs to start from zero and produce a racer, much less the 5 kit minimum.

The Sports class has the possibility of growing, you could most likely win in 2008 for about 1 million, starting now from scratch. In Unlimited that just pays the entry fee, buying the raw airplane to convert.

Bruce Patton

[Peashooter]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

$1 Million will buy a lot. BUT, there are homebuilders out there who can do a lot with very LITTLE. A Long EZ can be built for under $20K with basic VFR gauges and a half run-out engine. Maybe even $15K. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would be lots faster than your average Honda for the same jack. (No, a Long EZ is not a viable Sport Classer)

My point is that a resourceful guy or gal with good ideas can really surprise you. It's the Steve Wittman-type from the Golden Air of air racing (1930s for you young-uns) who can pick up a floundering project for a song, say a Glasair III, modify the hell out of it and build up his or her own monster engine and go race. Neither "Bonzo" nor "Buster" ever won any concoure awards, but they won lots of races.

http://www.totalracing.com/wittman/racehist.htm

Dreamers dream, doers do...

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

So now is not the time to dilute the effort and go with a 1,000 CI class. AT best, that class might have five airplanes in two years, two of which could win and rest are just flying.

I'm not proposing to dilute the effort, I am talking about a class seperate in scope and direction from the sport class. More along the lines of single seat race only aircraft without the necessity to design and build a kit line. One off designs would be allowed. and you are right At best there would be five airplanes in two to three years, but you have to start somewhere. Comparing thoughts on a Sport Class vs. 1K Unlimited, would be like say comparing Trans Am racers to indy cars. I am not advocating replacing the Sport Class, Formula one, or Biplane Class, I am talking about developing a viable long term alternative to the Warbird Based Unlimited Class. And not for next year or the next but possibly five years out.

Ask (or please don't ask) Nemisis what it really costs to start from zero and produce a racer, much less the 5 kit minimum.

This is racing and viable alternative to the long term super-expense of the unlimited class is an avenue that will explored. Maybe there is never going to be a new class.

The kids on the airport fence can't afford a Mustang to race with, and some of them dream of single seats, retract gear and future glory. Why should the cost of racing an airplane be determined on the base value of a hulk. Do you know why there has only been one real racing Bearcat since Darryl retired his? They are too rare and cost too much. Dago Red was built up out parts as was Strega and Stilleto, Oh yes, as was Rare Bear, as was 232. The entry level cost to build a current Unlimited racer is high, but to power the top of the field in an unlimited is 160,000 to 200,000 per engine to start from scratch. that is 320,000 to 400,000 just to walk out with a spare if winning is the goal. so the comparison to costs over a ten year program isn't that extreme.

The Sports class has the possibility of growing, you could most likely win in 2008 for about 1 million, starting now from scratch. In Unlimited that just pays the entry fee, buying the raw airplane to convert.
Bruce Patton

Bruce,
As I have said before this is just smoke and mirrors nothing to get excited about. IF we hold a valid discussion, IF parameters for a new class come out of it, IF it interests four or five guys to sit down and build airplanes to a projected class specification based on those discussions, THEN the reality becomes something to worry about. Money may or may not be the issue.

Thanks

[Tosg]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Back in the mid-70's, an outline for a 550 ci "GT" class was drawn up by some of the more progressive people involved in F-1. The proposal was shelved due to the political upheaval going on in air racing at that time.

The basic concept for the class was to supplement the unlimiteds with a "Greve Trophy" catagory, which would stimulate both airframe and engine development. The 550 ci limit was picked to include most available GA powerplants (no O-720 variants). Airframe requirements were two seats, a minimum baggage area, and various safety requirements (O/B fire extinguishers, etc.). Most everything else was open for innovation. The thought was that new aircraft designs could be developed and tested in a racing environment, and that some viable designs would result. It was also expected that the engine/prop OEM's would be interested and would support the new class. The idea was that this class would be a stepping stone for the inevitable open displacement "homebuilt unlimiteds" that would come along with the eventual decline of the warbird unlimiteds.

In the early 1990's, RARA approached some of the principals in F-1 that had a hand in the original proposal and asked for an updated presentation (there is a short blurb on the proposal in the 1993 or 1994 Air Classics Reno article by John Tegler). Key members of RARA were very enthusiatic, but there was a management turnover and the new group foolishly chose to back the T-28 class with the seed money that was going to set aside to develop the GT class. While the Sport class has developed nicely and has drawn in the engine/prop OEM's, in my opinion it is a shame that the GT concept was not adopted to encourage new airframe development as well. All this was some 7-8 years before the Sport class started. Think of where this class would be now!

[wyhdah]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

I agree with John Slack on this. I think there is room for a purpose built racer. The kit rule keeps many from even trying to build racers. The fact that trial and error has to be made for kit purposes instead of strictly racing I am sure sets back the development pace. John Sharpe could give better insight to this than I.

Think of all the types of racers that people like Hughes and others invented. One off strickly racing pieces, in my opinion, still have a place in racing.

Safety would be the biggest concern but I believe it is safe to say that is much easier to engineer competent designs and racers are capable of acquiring the knowledge and materials now more than ever.

[shorebird]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

I believe that in time most race modified unlimited warbirds will likely be returned to their original configuration, if for no other reason then to allow their owners to realize the true and full value of their aircraft. However, as long as the owners of unlimited like Rare Bear, Voodoo and Dago are willing to put on the show, god bless em, I'll be there to watch.

Having said that, I fully support a new class of racer in addition to the existing racing classes. It seems that the original spirit and intent of the sport class rules were realized the first time a four place Lanceair went around the pylons at 300mph++ , that's impressive. I have to wonder at this point however, if the current sport class rules have put guys like John Sharp in an impossible position. I'm guessing that he probably was looking to escape the limits of F1 and found himself having to become an aircraft kit manufacturer to do so. I wonder what he would have built if he wasn't limited by engine displacement, seating and the kitting requirement.
The sport has always needed something in addition to and beyond F1 but with the same singleness of design and purpose. Not a kit, nor cross country passenger plane but rather a one-off, purpose built racer designed with the sole intent of flying around pylons at the fastest possible speed.

[Bill Marsh]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

First of all i am enjoying this direction of this thread !!!!!!!!!!!

I think i may have said.... every hot lap by any race plan where ever it is is very important to me. Including all postings on the aafo site by the way.

Its time to converge those parties; private, supply chain providers anf manufactuerers and drive this new deal into at least a goal oriented objetive status to test this concept and feasibility will stick to the wall.

Cluster dreaming should be over right now. I really dont know , maybe there are a 100 or so individuals who can drive, control conditional acceptance and move forward.

This banter IMHO needs to end, why?

#1 Life happens to you when you are making other plans.
#2 If you (we) think that our racing jandra (sp?) has an identity chrisis now, wait until Red Bull adopts “air racing” as their real air racing deal thinggy.
#3 What little credibility we have Now will be gone and so will the sponsor’s money and what ever.

I saw this happen with the Junior Fuelers in the late 60’s. Just like today, we racers did nothing back then and the Hot Rod Associations trashed our very popular (too popular in fact) series… bending to the AAFD guys that the little fuelers were incroaching on their king of the hill deal.

My car was relegated to C fuler status …. A real POS. Gone were the days when 40+ cars would show up at Fontana – on a Thursday nite… all summer , even heqard that some tracks were running 3 cars at a time cause it was so popular.

I got out, lost my stones, shirt and socks… Lesson learned here… back in the day, we didn’t have a clue.

There has been lots of chatter FOR YEARS. Do you really believe that the RA RA folks really care about racing like we aafo people do?

_________________________________

Please, somebody do something…. Do YOU guys have a clue. USE this board to effect change


Over….

BM

[wyhdah]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

Bill, I was at the PRI show this past week and made it a point to ask the production companies why we could not get the National Championship Races televised. They told me because there were no large request from networks hence the public and no one presented the sport with a sponsor package for such a production.

I have a couple of problems with this. Recently I have seen a figure eight school bus race on television, lawn mower racing, and other, dare I say, small venue type races televised. My point is I don't think these sports are represented as well as Air Racing but they still get the air time.

I am not sure exactly where I am going with this but I think this shows a little about what we are up against when we talk about growth. If the principles (read organizers) of this sport are not interested in the future or the growth of the sport all of this talk is strictly entertainment.

[Reno_Steve]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

The new rule bringing in a minimum weight limit for the unlimiteds makes sense in that small aircraft could be caught by the turbelance of the large aircraft but also implies that there should be an unlimited light class for aircraft lighter than the limit.
We could over lap the limits allowing aircraft to choose which class they fly in, and it would probably make sense to provide an engine size limit for the light class. (I am not totally convinced on this point )

Sports class aircraft may wish to compete in the unlimited light races as well as the Sports class providing extra numbers of aircraft from the first race.

It would be interesting to see which race provides the highest speeds between the heavy weight and light weight unlimiteds.
As for engine supply running out. This will not result in the death of air racing. It will just mean that aircraft and engines will be sourced from different manufacturers. Speeds will probably keep rising, with the war birds due to spare shortages not performing as well, but the modern aircraft will evolve into the dominent racers.

[Bottom Rudder]

Re: Superbore Sport Class

...the hairs on the back of my neck stood up there for a second thinking that kerch might be thinking about wrenchin on a sport, or atleast not an unlimited.
Lam

Kerch's name appears on the side of Scotty G's Unleashed...

Bill M.