MA-II Speed Potential

[Peashooter]

DHT Web featured MA-II as it's picture of the week last week.

http://www.dthweb.com/Pictures/Dth/Medium/RN-1999-P51-001M.JPG

A question for the high-end aero guys, what was the true potential of MA-II with a race-prepped Griffon?

While I love the brutishness of the Bear and September Fury, MA-II remains my all time favorite.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

Ahh... what could have been! Considering that they were approaching the mid 400's (I think top speed for a race was something like 437mph) in collective race speeds, and certainly much faster during some laps with what was basically a stock engine...

The archives here are a bit messed up and some of the newer visitors may not have ever read the interview Bill Rogers gave us in the '97-'98 date range (read here)

She was a beauty! Inside and out, a work of art... Since it was a brand new airframe, truly, even the inside of her was just like a new car... had that "new car smell" and all..

I don't think we'll ever get to see another one like her but we can sure dream!

Wayne

[spacegrrrl]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

At one time I had all the testing data from Diley who had done good basic performance testing of Vendetta. (Bill gave it to me to crunch to so some performace estimates). I built a simple mathmatical model based on the actual test data. I might have it somewhere. If I can find it I'll post the projected performance.

Michele

[BellCobraIV]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

Carl Friend had the privilege of working at some of the best places in aviation and directly with some of the best names in the history of aviation, including Kelly Johnson, and Jack Northrop. Carl accurately predicted the results of the various modification programs we undertook with the Bearcat over the years with almost spooky accuracy. When he first saw Vendetta he made the comment "Wow, if they traded wings there must be a really fast Learjet out there somewhere." Carl had done the numbers and the technical answer was the Vendetta program was less than brilliant, although the workmanship was top of the line. In the MAII line of thought, it was somewhat comparable to racing a Mustang with a single stage Merlin with sole intention of trying to create the extra horsepower required "chemically" instead of with boost. an interesting thought especially if you think about using the other blower gears in the Merlin and saving the horsepower required and augmenting the engine with chemicals. Lots of vague ramblings but having just returned from a weekend with "The DOC", My mind is at speed.

[Victor Archer]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

DHT Web featured MA-II as it's picture of the week last week.

WOW $100.00 for an 11"x14" print.... I wonder what RARA thinks about that???

[fenceliner01]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

WOW $100.00 for an 11"x14" print.... I wonder what RARA thinks about that???

I would guess if there is no visual reference to RARA or the races in the scene, they can think anything they want.

What about the pilots or owners of the aircraft depicted? I saw several recognizable faces in some of his for-sale images

[Peashooter]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

At one time I had all the testing data from Diley who had done good basic performance testing of Vendetta. (Bill gave it to me to crunch to so some performace estimates). I built a simple mathmatical model based on the actual test data. I might have it somewhere. If I can find it I'll post the projected performance.

Michele

That would be cool! Can a race-prepped Griff prodcue more than a highly tweaked mouse-motor? Or, just assume 3,000 hp either way?

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

WOW $100.00 for an 11"x14" print.... I wonder what RARA thinks about that???

While Dominique's print *listed* prices may seem somewhat high, I've received a few from him as gifts in the past and he has them printed in extremely high quality format...

As for the RARA consideration, Dominique has been in association with RARA for many years, very likely, he has a royalty agreement in place with them and very likely, in the event he actually *does* sell a print, sends them their rightful, agreed upon percentage therein...

Wayne

[fenceliner01]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

As for the RARA consideration, Dominique has been in association with RARA for many years, very likely, he has a royalty agreement in place with them and very likely, in the event he actually *does* sell a print, sends them their rightful, agreed upon percentage therein...

Wayne

I'm just curious, everybody - in consideration of press credentials and pylon passes, is their any restrictions on the commercial use of images taken at the air races? If so , is there a standard royalty agreement?

What about the fans in the stands and pits? Does RARA have any control over images taken from off-site, or is the event considered public domain if you are not on the grounds.

Also, if sponsor or RARA logos appear in images that are offered for sale, does that constitute a trademark violation? I'm thinking of shots that have the Home Pylon or the Breitling stand in the background.

I'm not rying to stir up anyhting here - I imagine there are lots of people that might have the same questions when they get home and discover they have taken a really good image of some event and might want to try and sell it. If RARA does post guidelines, I'd be happy to be pointed in the right direction.

MIke A.

[MRussell]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

Cruel threadjack.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

In answer to Mike's question... media folks all sign a release regarding anything produced (images, video, etc) at the races while under the control of RARA... i.e.... while we're using the media access granted us by the Race Assn...

This release is a "hold harmless" agreement, as well as an agreement regarding use of the material produced. It does not control any use that is considered "journalistic" as that is a first amendment right.. So anything that we produce can be sold to any publication that could be considered as a journalistic outlet...

Regarding "commercial" use... such as in a calendar, for instance, or sales of prints, etc.. in the past, the agreement was that RARA would receive a percentage of any sales. As it stands now, prior permission must be granted, in writing before any of this type sale can be made..

This is pretty standard media agreement for a venue such as Reno.

In regard to Dominique's sales prices, discussion of which started this thread hijack.. That page on Dom's site was VERY likely made while he was under the previous agreement.. i.e... RARA gets a percentage. In fact, if that photo was taken when Dominique WAS covered by that previously signed release by him, then, likely, he's totally within his legal obligation with them, as long as, if he makes sales, RARA gets their share...

WHICH, I might add, then goes into the general fund... including the prize fund.

Personally, I feel very good about being able to help, in whatever small way I can, when I contribute to the races by any means that I can..

OK... let's return this thread to the original subject now.. shall we??

Wayne

[wyhdah]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

John, was Carl Friend suggesting the Mustang wing was faster than the Lear? I would think that there was good bit of thought put into the Lear wing retrofit before the trouble was take to do so. Man that would be something if a team were to go through that kind of trouble and not be faster.

[Victor Archer]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

I apologize to everyone for hijacking this thread.
I think I shall now vote myself off the island.......

SEE YA

[Leo]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

Would it be more of an issue ot the Lear wing not being optimal for the type of use? More of a high-altitude, high speed design not particularly suited to high g turns?
Am I off base here?
Sure looked cool tho!

[speeddemon]

Re: MA-II Speed Potential

That would be cool! Can a race-prepped Griff prodcue more than a highly tweaked mouse-motor? Or, just assume 3,000 hp either way?

One of our resident Merlin experts on this site has pointed out that Dave Z was less than impressed by the performance of the Griffon in the RB-51 program. The numbers turned in by #5 pretty much back that up--they were fast for the time, but merely a 'bump' by todays standards.

Now, who knows how much the RB ever REALLY got 'pushed', and how much potential there was left. It certainly was a 'hefty' Mustang (almost 5 tons, as I recall), which no doubt had to impact any performance gain by using the bigger engine. And remember, the thought process for using the Griffon in the first place was to run it at 'near stock' manifold pressures (as opposed to overboosting the Merlin). I'm not sure how much the RB's engines were ever truly 'modified' in the first place.

Another thing to consider is that the RB used the two-stage Mk57 Griffon, while MAII used the less powerful single-stage MK 74. I know there was a lot of talk in '98-99 that they just weren't getting the power out of the Mk 74 that they had hoped, but there wasn't enough room as far as the airframe would allow 'as is' to utilize the bigger Mk 57.

Now, to answer your base question, yes, a race prepared Griffon CAN produce more horsepower than a 'mouse-type' motor. But it goes back to the old 'cubic dollar' equation. How much do you want to spend?

My example is in hydroplane racing and not air racing. Back in the late 70's and early '80's, the Miss Budweiser ran Mk 74 Griffons with the HUGE PR 100 carb on it. They turned it WAY up on the rpm's and ran about 140 inches of manifold pressure on it. To this day, the engine builder (who is a friend of mine, and doesn't tell 'too many' tall tales) claims around 3800-4000 horsepower. And this was during the time when their main competition--the Atlas Van Lines crew chief Dave Seefeldt--was experimenting with Allison-rods in their Merlins and such.

A fair comparison to air racing and a Thorne 'mouse motor'? Probably not....two very different environments, and undoubtedly the current-day 'Mouses' have a lot of 'secret squirrel' stuff in the bottom end that the Atlas guys never even thought about. But still. The Bud team threw a TON of money into the Griffon engines, and went through them like crazy--a lot of blown engines, lots of broken parts, LOTS of overhauls between races.

So you have to ask yourself the same thing Mike Smith did....'What price speed?'