Stiletto?

[speeddemon]

Re: Stiletto?

If only Tiger would de-scoop Strega.........

And slow it down by 50 mph?

[Race 22 Crew]

Re: Stiletto?

Here are a couple more. Sorry for the quality, no scanner here. These are digital shots of the slide being viewed on a projector screen. I need a new screen without the silver coating on the fabric surface, hence the vertical lines on the images.

Warren

[jarrodeu]

Re: Stiletto?

And slow it down by 50 mph?

Then why did they do it to Stiletto?

Jarrod

[Race5]

Re: Stiletto?

Who's got that canopy? I'd love to hang it on my wall of shame.

Matt J

Tiger has it Matt.

[speeddemon]

Re: Stiletto?

Then why did they do it to Stiletto?

Jarrod

Because Stiletto was a design from twenty years ago, at a time when the top speeds were in the 430-440 mph range, and the course was a mile longer...before Strega was given the Kerch-Thorne treatment. Even with a boil-off system and everything sealed up, you'd be hard-pressed to find something as slick as the heat exchanger intake/exhaust systems on Dago and Strega.

What is the fastest that Stiletto ever raced in competition? What is the fastest Strega and/or Dago have done? There's a good 50 mph difference there, and on a shorter course to boot.

You could argue that if you brought Stiletto up to 2007 standards with a Mouse Motor and good gearing/prop, that it might be faster. But why tear up Strega when its better just as it is?

[laminar]

Re: Stiletto?

The benefits of removing the scoop shouldn't be related to airspeed. Sure someone will argue that a mustangs scoop makes thrust but that has never been proven and there is more evidence that cites the opposite. The biggest problem with chopping the scoop off of either of the red mustangs has nothing to do with the principles associated with eliminating the airplane's cooling drag. The biggest problem is niether of those airplanes have the resources to dial them back in after a major change like that. Unless of course ole tiger has courted skoal back into his corner.

[MustangFan]

Re: Stiletto?

Anybody got photos or know links with pics of the other scoopless mustang, Anson Johnson's Race 45?

That was one machine that I really liked the look of but have seen very few pics of it.

Here's one:

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/survivors/pages/44-72400.shtml

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Stiletto?

I have flown some of the fastest racers around. Stiletto was clearly the fastest on the least amount of HP I have ever flown with the boiler in 1992. It was easily 20 MPH faster indicated then any other Race Mustang at the same power, and I have flown most of the fast ones. I believe with a Mouse Motor and airframe sealing she would have been untouchable today. The problem is we will never know how fast she would have really been with a good motor!!!! Tiger I want that canopy!!!!

Matt J

[zeke]

Re: Stiletto?

I have flown some of the fastest racers around. Stiletto was clearly the fastest on the least amount of HP I have ever flown with the boiler in 1992. It was easily 20 MPH faster indicated then any other Race Mustang at the same power, and I have flown most of the fast ones. I believe with a Mouse Motor and airframe sealing she would have been untouchable today. The problem is we will never know how fast she would have really been with a good motor!!!! Tiger I want that canopy!!!!

Matt J

Matt, do you think she was the fastest for a given hp because of her light weight or her good looks (aerodynamics)?

If I was asking that about a women there's a few compliments thrown in there in one go

With your experience there, I'm sure a lot of us here would love just to get a ride in some of the racers if they had a jump seat, what are the differences like flying Mustangs that are stock, to the mildly modified, to the full race prepared Mustangs (or other race types you have flown)?

I know there is more power therefore more torque trying to twist you off line, but also things like cg changes, clipped wings and cleaner aerodynamics I'm sure would change the way an aircraft feels & flies.

I'm not sure if it's ok to name the planes or not, either way it's just a privilege to be able to ask someone who has the experience, as there's not to many pilots who get those sort of opportunities to be able to ask that are out there.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Stiletto?

I'm having to agree with Matt Jackson on this one, I have heard the same answer from Skip Holm regarding Stiletto. Stiletto was disassembled in my opinion for all the wrong reasons, and was originally built for all the right reasons. Skip once told me way back in 1986 that he thought Stiletto was capable of 494 course speeds. Stiletto in my opinion once again had the distinction of being in the wrong place at the right time. When Zeuschel originally concieved the idea of Stiletto she was to be the in-house racer of an engine guy. Her first time out she did well, however unfortunately for Stiletto the "partner" in the racer and Dave's relationship deteriorated so severly that by the final year Dave wouldn't even hardly support the plane.

Then it went off to Sherman aircraft sales where the main focus was really selling the plane instead of racing it. Next it became the bastard step child of the Museum of Flying, Matt Jackson was able to put together a deal to use the plane and perfect the boiler which showed that a few "guys from Van Nuys" could do what the higher paid crowd from Santa Monica said couldn't be done. This ruffled some feathers and the deal with Matt was undone. But to do this day Matt and the "guys from Van Nuys" are the only people in unlimited racing to have a run a total loss cooling system and shown it as an advantage.

I think that IF Zeuschel had not had a "partner" like he did, and had a partner like Wiley Sanders on the Stiletto project you would have seen much higher speeds in the 1985 to 1986 time period. But then again it was the failure of the deal with Wiley that was the spark for the creation of the in-house racer.

There are lots of what ifs in this world but surely in Air Racing Stiletto is one of the greatest of those. Matt 5 is right the canopy was at Tiger's place last I saw it. I think with the complete turtledeck.

[Matt Jackson]

Re: Stiletto?

While weight played big on Stiletto's design, it was not the reason for its speed. The real answer is aerodynamics. It was a slick dog and it really would go when you put power to it. The problem was when Stiletto finally reached its final development stage a good engine was not to be found. I essentially ran the 1992 race with an engine that was capable of 100 inches max and that was not a guarantee. In fact I ended up running the race with no ADI and about 75-80 inches with an induction temp out the roof. I would throttle up to 80 inches to pass someone only to have to reduce to 75 to keep her alive. In regards to the flying qualities of these different race aircraft. The issue seems to be visibility and poor slow handling qualities. I always say that the most dangerous time during the race is when its over and you have to land. You're blind the ailerons don't work too well in the ever blowing crosswind and your pumped up and out of gas and options. The only racer that I have to say is not like that is Dreadnought. When visibility is working and the weather is right most of the race planes are reasonable to fly. They all seem to fall into a very simular category however. (Hazardous)

[speeddemon]

Re: Stiletto?

I'm having to agree with Matt Jackson on this one, I have heard the same answer from Skip Holm regarding Stiletto. Stiletto was disassembled in my opinion for all the wrong reasons, and was originally built for all the right reasons. Skip once told me way back in 1986 that he thought Stiletto was capable of 494 course speeds. Stiletto in my opinion once again had the distinction of being in the wrong place at the right time. When Zeuschel originally concieved the idea of Stiletto she was to be the in-house racer of an engine guy. Her first time out she did well, however unfortunately for Stiletto the "partner" in the racer and Dave's relationship deteriorated so severly that by the final year Dave wouldn't even hardly support the plane.

Then it went off to Sherman aircraft sales where the main focus was really selling the plane instead of racing it. Next it became the bastard step child of the Museum of Flying, Matt Jackson was able to put together a deal to use the plane and perfect the boiler which showed that a few "guys from Van Nuys" could do what the higher paid crowd from Santa Monica said couldn't be done. This ruffled some feathers and the deal with Matt was undone. But to do this day Matt and the "guys from Van Nuys" are the only people in unlimited racing to have a run a total loss cooling system and shown it as an advantage.

I think that IF Zeuschel had not had a "partner" like he did, and had a partner like Wiley Sanders on the Stiletto project you would have seen much higher speeds in the 1985 to 1986 time period. But then again it was the failure of the deal with Wiley that was the spark for the creation of the in-house racer.

There are lots of what ifs in this world but surely in Air Racing Stiletto is one of the greatest of those. Matt 5 is right the canopy was at Tiger's place last I saw it. I think with the complete turtledeck.

LOL......"The Partner". I think I had termed him 'the owner' earlier...but is this individual going to become like Lord Voldamort in Harry Potter? "He Who Shall Not Be Named"

If I recall, the issues started at the Bakersfield race in '85 when Skip blew the engine. The arguments with Z actually started right there on the ramp...and then the plane sat there for several weeks before tempers settled down enough to get it repaired for Reno.

And then I think the final blow came at Reno '86 when "The Partner" made a comment that Stiletto would have done better if it had had a Mike Nixon engine in it (like the plane "The Partner" was flying that day).

D'oh!!!!!

So is there ANYONE whom "the Partner" hasn't isolated in the racing world? RARA maybe? Man of the Year????

[JCP]

Re: Stiletto?

If I'm not mistaken, Mark Peterson now owns it and it's based in Boise.

[BellCobraIV]

Re: Stiletto?

Time Portals, while the fantasy of time portals is entrenched in sci-fi, and computer games, mostly it is lost on the mere mortals of this world. A time portal opens when an airframe becomes available, or is built.

This portal must be then filled with with an engine program that can deliver, a pilot that can really fly and wants to race to win not just fly to be cool. Then a team of talented dedicated individuals needs to be assembled around it.

The next part of the equation is that the crew of people needs to be lead by a focus locked person that has the priveledge of being solely dedicated 24 hours a day, to winning Reno, they have to be able to focus on the goal all the time without distraction from normal life.

This portal does not occur often and right now there are no Mustangs in the Portal.

[jarrodeu]

Re: Stiletto?

So who is the partner? Is he related to museum of flying?

Jarrod