F-22 Demo Vid

[Stevo]

Thanks to Jan Parker for forwarding this on to me... hope you all enjoy Looking forward to seeing the demo in person.

F-22 Demo
Dail-up users beware

[BlueOvalRacing]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

WOW! ditto, I wanna see it in person. Thanks for the link!

[Bob]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

WOW That plane is awsome. Amazing flight. WOW

[speeddemon]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

Cool stuff.

Maybe we can get Hacker in here to comment on it...but I heard some interesting things about the F-22....about how its now this great plane that we have no place for in the 'system'. Something about because of all the delays in development and production, that its already been pretty much by-passed (technology wise, not performance) by some of the other stuff like the Euro-Fighter, etc. It was an interesting perspective on a great airplane. Sort of along the lines of 'what if we had an air race and nobody came?'

[Randy Haskin]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

That's "sort of" what I think of it.

The reality is that the airplane is simply phenomenal -- it is a paradigm-changing leap in capabilities over the current crop of military fighters. Currently-fielded fighters in ANY country can't hold a match to it, and won't be able to for several years -- maybe a decade.

HOWEVER

It is literally 10+ years too late. Although there is a lot of improvements going into the Raptor as it is fielded, the F-22 is a product of the late 1980s and early 1990s. It should have been operational in 1995, not 2005.

F-35 is a jump in capabilities over the F-22, too. Although the F-35 was not intended to fill the same role as the Raptor (e.g. the same relationship between the F-15 and F-16), it will in some ways be more capable than the Raptor simply because of the development timeline.

This is not to imply in any way that the Raptor is worthless, or a waste of money, or shouldn't be built. On the contrary -- there should all ready be 250 of them in service. Congress robbed the country of a decade of this aircraft's capabilities and -- more importantly -- allowed a decade of other countries' aircraft technologies developments to encroach on it.

[zeke]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

F-35 is a jump in capabilities over the F-22, too. Although the F-35 was not intended to fill the same role as the Raptor (e.g. the same relationship between the F-15 and F-16), it will in some ways be more capable than the Raptor simply because of the development timeline.

More capable? I'm curious in how the F-35 is more capable than an F-22. Sure it is designed for more of a multi role application and as such would be more capable there, but the F-22 features more capabilities that the F-35 is never going to have (supercruise, thrust/weight ratio, all round stealth, larger radar aperture, Payload/range).

The avionics and sensors may be more developed in the F-35, but in an aircraft that is one of the easier aspects to update over changing the wing, engine or fuselage to increase range or permit supercruise performance.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but I can't really see it as any more capable or heard any reports that it is. In what situation would you rather be sitting in the F-35 than the F-22? If there were SAM's or Su-27's (or any other modern air defences) in the area I would want my seat in the F-22.

[zeke]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

Looking at this website http://www.ausairpower.net which has a number of articles comparing various aircraft capabilities.

A quote from Lt. Gen. David A. Deptula, Commander
USAF Kenney Warfighting Headquarters at http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-Deptula-IV-06.pdf

"In addition to traditional
fighter and bomber missions, the F/A-22A can
conduct the kind of activities that an Airborne
Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system does,
or the RC-135 surveillance aircraft does, or what
an electronic attack aircraft does. What the F/A-
22A brings to the equation is not just another
aircraft to replace F-15s, but a multitude of
capabilities for a joint force commander. It’s not
just an F/A-22A it’s an F/A/B/EA/RC/E-22A."

[speeddemon]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

Thanks for your fighter pilot analysis there, Zeke. I think you're missing the point of what he was saying. He didn't say it wasn't capable. Its certainly one of the best all-around fighters ever built. But it sat in the can for 10 years for political reasons. He said that because of the delays in getting the program operational, certain technologies bypassed the F-22, that are now on the 'next' generation of planes like the Euro Fighter and F-35. And some of those technologies you can't retrofit into it.

Hacker will be the first one to tell you what a great and capable platform the Raptor is...since they've handed his fighter pilot head to him on a platter every single time, MULTIPLE times, that they have gone head to head--even when they've gone into the scenario with an overwhelming advantage.

["Race" Driver]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

I see nothing but big grins out at the shop in Palmdale with the F-22 and the F-35......

["Race" Driver]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

Here's an article from Aerospace World about the Raptor and the Red Flag exercises at Nellis in Feb.

Red Flag Raptors

The F-22 extended its winning streak at its first all-up Red Flag combat training exercises, where the Raptor-led “Blue” forces scored a lopsided victory over Red Air “Aggressor” forces using their best tricks.

Fourteen F-22s of the 94th Fighter Squadron at Langley AFB, Va., flew daily from Feb. 3-16 at the Nellis AFB, Nev., wargame, which included more than 200 US and coalition aircraft. The F-22s didn’t miss a single scheduled mission—unprecedented for a fighter so early in its operational status and a tribute to the skill of its maintainers, according to Col. Thomas Bergeson, 1st Operations Group commander. Bergeson and 94th commander Lt. Col. Dirk Smith discussed the exercise with reporters at the Pentagon in a March teleconference.

The event marked the first time the F-22s have flown with coalition aircraft. Australian F-111s and C-130 tactical transports flew in the wargame, as did British GR-4 Tornados and C-130s. Participating types from the US included stealth B-2 bombers and F-117 attack aircraft, as well as F-15s, F-16s, F-5s, and Navy EA-6B Prowler jammer airplanes.

Smith said the F-22s, augmented by F-15s, typically protected a strike package of about 50 aircraft against a numerically superior defending force. The 94th—most of whose pilots have less than 100 hours in the F-22—consistently defeated the F-15s and F-16s of Nellis’ Aggressors, the 414th Combat Training Squadron. The 414th quickly upped the ante of their tactics, and by the third day, “we were seeing their ‘A’ game, if you will,” Bergeson reported. Only one F-22 was “lost” in the wargames.

Bergeson noted that “very few, if any” Red Air survived the F-22-led Blue force attack.

Red Flag provided an opportunity to explore the “synergies” of combining stealth aircraft with a variety of nonstealthy types in a number of scenarios, Bergeson added. The F-22s helped “open up a lane” for the nonstealthy aircraft to get past Red defenses.

As they did in Operation Northern Edge last year, the F-22s remained in the fight after expending their weapons, providing forward-area eyes for the rest of the Blue force, and directing comrades around or toward Red threats. (See “The Raptor in the Real World,” February, p. 32.)

They also performed close air support and “dynamic retargeting,” which involves changing a ground target well into the mission, Smith reported. “Time critical” targets were also struck.

The F-22s went against ground threats simulating real-world air defenses, including communications jamming, networked surface-to-air missiles, and anti-aircraft artillery. The Aggressors attempted to lure the F-22s into “SAM-bushes,” trying to get the Raptors to pursue them into areas densely defended by surface weapons.

Each day of the exercise involved two “wars”—a daytime fight and one at night, with eight Raptors flying during the day and six at night, Smith reported. Red Air was permitted to “regenerate”—sometimes four or five times—after being “killed” in the exercise, but Blue forces were not. That in itself represented a tougher situation than the real world, since an enemy would likely lose his best airplanes and pilots early and offer a diminishing defense as a real war proceeded.

Bergeson described the Nellis units as “probably the best Red Air on the planet” and said the F-22 pilots are now “better than we were [before] ... because of the fantastic training” the Aggressors provided.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

More capable? I'm curious in how the F-35 is more capable than an F-22. Sure it is designed for more of a multi role application and as such would be more capable there, but the F-22 features more capabilities that the F-35 is never going to have (supercruise, thrust/weight ratio, all round stealth, larger radar aperture, Payload/range).

The avionics and sensors may be more developed in the F-35, but in an aircraft that is one of the easier aspects to update over changing the wing, engine or fuselage to increase range or permit supercruise performance.

When the entire airplane is one big "avionic", time matters. What would you rather have on your desk -- a big top-of-the-line mainframe made in 1989 or a top-of-the-line laptop made in 2000? How many technological leaps have there been in the time between? In 1989, they would have laughed if I told them one day I would have two Gigs of flash memory hanging off my keychain that I could plug into any PC.

It is NOT easy to swap out and update avionics when one of the greatest strengths is the integration of all those sensors into one suite. It's not plug-and-play with new LRUs. It is MUCH, MUCH more complicated than that to update avionics in such an aircraft.

The F-15E just underwent a major avionics overhaul that updated our central computer with one that has PENTIUM architecture. It replaces the one that it's had for about 10 years which was based on 8086 architecture!

The military aircraft world doesn't advance as fast as commercial electronics do these days. Something designed in the late 1990s (JSF) is going to be LEAPS AND BOUNDS above something designed in the late 1980s (Raptor). Both of which are in an entirely different league than something designed in the mid 1980s (F-15E).

[SpinB]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

Well, Hacker, at least this thing didn't win the contract.....

http://www.warthogpen.com/twoseat.html

[zeke]

Re: F-22 Demo Vid

Randy (& speedemon) I do agree with what you have been saying. Yes the F-35 has the benefit of more recent development and avionics, and that does make a large difference in flying and fighting the aircraft. And yes the F-22 is a great aircraft that was designed decades ago and should have been in service (as it was planned) a long time ago.

I live in Australia and we currently fly F-18's & F-111's, with a recent decision to purchase a small number of F-18 E/F's as an interim aircraft retiring the F-111 and also purchasing the F-35 when it enters production. In our region a number of countries fly various models of the Flanker and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for them to also purchase modern Russian SAM systems.

If the F-35 is more capable, great, I really hope it is for our air force. But is it? Here's my point, a more modern, better avionics, more capable multi role fighter & attack aircraft (F-18) was downed by a less modern, worse avionics, single role but more capable interceptor (Mig 25) in the first gulf war.

The F-111 might be ancient and lacking in radar/avionics & missiles but it is more capable to deliver a heavy bomb load 800miles away than a current generation Saab Gripen.

The F-18 SuperHornet is more modern and has the benefit of more modern computing & avionics than the F-22 but I don't think that it is any more "capable" than the F-22. The same applies for the Eurofighter.

Like the F-15 compared to the F-16, the F-16 is a more capable dogfighter but generally the F-15 is better for most missions. I'm just wondering how the F-35 has greater capacity to fulfill certain missions over an F-22. Maybe there is lots of them, I'm just curious as I didn't think there was much it was better at. If you need to take of vertically or off a carrier it's the only option. In the attack role that it is more optimized for?