The pound racer

[440_Magnum]

Re: The pound racer

I agree David, and the rules for weight were put into place to keep from making those WWII planes obsolete. Why build a composite racer if not to be lighter and faster. And I would also venture to say that the big companies don't make composite airplanes because of retooling and training cost not development. Most fighters have had some composite stressed items for several years.

It's going to take someone like Pond or the advancement of the sport class to continue with this sport.

My personal opinion is that the only thing missing right now (as it was at the time of the Pond Racer, actually) is a big enough modern aircraft race engine. Tsunami was the right idea- wrap the smallest airframe possible around the best combination of power and reliability. At the time, a Merlin was the obvious choice and unfortunately there's nothing new that has *quite* enough power yet. Even without the weight restriction, I don't think there's quite enough engine out there to make something the size of the sport class racers as fast as the gold Unlimited winners like Dago, Strega, Bear, and September Fury. They're getting close- sport class speeds are sneaking up into gold territory, but until one of them runs faster than Dreadnought, they aren't there yet

[51fixer]

Re: The pound racer

I watched the Turkish GP yesterday, one thing that was VERY Interesting was a bit about the "Life" of composite F1 monocoques. It seems that they get "Soft" with Stress, lasting only about 5 years. Where does that put the 787?...D.

Back in the Pond Racer days a guy who helped us some worked in the Car Racing world.
We discussed the carbon fiber structures used in the cars. This was a while ago but they seemed to design to the smallest of magins. WWII fighter- way overbuilt, F1 chassis built to the edge of just what was needed. They actually had a fixture to keep the chassis in while not racing so that it wouldn't lose its shape. It was part keeping the design the lightest it could be and the type of resins utilized.
The march of technolgy also factors in. A chassis might be sold to others when the next geration chassis comes along if you are a cutting edge team. Whether you are big bucks, medium bucks or low dollar will determine if you are using the latest or recycled technology and parts.
Aircraft are designed and built to a completely different standard.
Rich

[Randy Haskin]

Re: The pound racer

It seems that they get "Soft" with Stress, lasting only about 5 years. Where does that put the 787?...D.

Apples and oranges. F1 teams don't have close to the financial and engineering resources that Boeing does when it comes to making airframes that last thousands and thousands of cycles.

If composites really became soft after a short duration of stress, than aircraft like the B-2 (with an all-composite center section and wing built by Boeing, who invented the layup and cure technology to build it in the late 80s) would all ready be showing signs of this happening.

[speeddemon]

Re: The pound racer

Apples and oranges. F1 teams don't have close to the financial and engineering resources that Boeing does when it comes to making airframes that last thousands and thousands of cycles.

If composites really became soft after a short duration of stress, than aircraft like the B-2 (with an all-composite center section and wing built by Boeing, who invented the layup and cure technology to build it in the late 80s) would all ready be showing signs of this happening.

I agree. Apples and oranges. If aircraft were undergoing the constant 'flex' stress that the F1 cars are, they'd have to be doing the equivellant of five seasons worth of two-hour, high G aerobatic routines. Most aircraft are going to be doing their flying at 1G...maybe 2G at worst, which is going to significantly increase cycle time. Even the planes racing at Reno, which might see higher G-loading only see them for seconds at a time, in a race that lasts maybe 5-6 minutes.

[wyhdah]

Re: The pound racer

My personal opinion is that the only thing missing right now (as it was at the time of the Pond Racer, actually) is a big enough modern aircraft race engine. Tsunami was the right idea- wrap the smallest airframe possible around the best combination of power and reliability. At the time, a Merlin was the obvious choice and unfortunately there's nothing new that has *quite* enough power yet. Even without the weight restriction, I don't think there's quite enough engine out there to make something the size of the sport class racers as fast as the gold Unlimited winners like Dago, Strega, Bear, and September Fury. They're getting close- sport class speeds are sneaking up into gold territory, but until one of them runs faster than Dreadnought, they aren't there yet

My point is I believe if the class were truly UNLIMITED then we could possibly have a solution to the problem you bring up. Why would anyone develop an engine that would be comparable to the big engines for a smaller, lighter airframe when that airframe is not allowed. I have seen turbo motors go from bairly making 2000 hp to 3000 in just a few years because there is a place for them to race. That is what is not available, a place to race.

[wyhdah]

Re: The pound racer

Hey Wyhdah, Don't forget about TSUNAMI! Unless you are under 21, it was around after you were born, and was mostly scratch-built..........

Yeah, t-dub I never really heard much about TSUNAMI! until I started following air racing on ESPN, remember those days, much less know about the construction of the plane as I do now. I guess some of the same arguement could be made for Miss Ashley II. At the time the Pond came out I read about it in a regular (non racing) aviation pub. That's first I had ever heard of an unlimited drawn on a completly blank page like the racers of old, at least since I was born. I didn't mean it was the first just the first I ever heard about. That is the kind of stir it caused and one I think any kind of racing needs.

Oh and I'm definately not 21 unfortunately

[MerlinV12]

Re: The pound racer

Well Spoken...

I tought this was a pretty good tread title.
Will their be a new version of the pound racer or something like it in the near future?

[51fixer]

Re: The pound racer

I tought this was a pretty good tread title.
Will their be a new version of the pound racer or something like it in the near future?

It'll come around quicker if you put up the money to design and build it.
Back then it cost Bob Pond (Not Pound) a few million and ultimately a friend's life.
You can mock this with your tinking of a cute title but what are you willing to put up or sacrifice to further this sport?
There are multiple threads which attest to the efforts and sacrifices of those who race. Look at those and mutiply that by several times and you might realize the amount of money, effort and sacrifice needed to field a team.
Rich

[AirDOGGe]

Re: The pound racer

Is the title intentionally insulting? I thought that the title was just making fun of the narator's strong accent. Whenever he said "Bob Pond", it almost sounded like he was saying "POWND".

[440_Magnum]

Re: The pound racer

My point is I believe if the class were truly UNLIMITED then we could possibly have a solution to the problem you bring up. Why would anyone develop an engine that would be comparable to the big engines for a smaller, lighter airframe when that airframe is not allowed. I have seen turbo motors go from bairly making 2000 hp to 3000 in just a few years because there is a place for them to race. That is what is not available, a place to race.

I don't necessarily disagree. I just think that if you did remove the weight rule, it would STILL be a while before someone gets a non-warbird engine that's competitive at the top of unlimited Gold, no matter what the weight rule is. It could happen overnight if we were already seeing Dreadnought-class speeds out of the Sport Class, but we aren't *quite* there yet. Well, we weren't there LAST year... but Relentless didn't have that gnarly exhaust augmenter last year either... Let's just say that with more development on the squeezed Falconer and more secret s#!* on the NXTs, I'll be paying more attention to the sport class results than I ever have before.

[David E. Wells]

Re: The pound racer

I think with the 1000cu in. rule and some applied Creativity we might just get something Interesting. If If1's get 230-250mph on 200cu in/100hp what could some genius do with a 985? A composite Laird-Turner LTR w/ retracts? Schoenfeldt Firecra...NO a Crosby Racer with a Double-Blown Ferrari V-12...it's Cocktail Hour in PA...D

[Lockheed Bob]

Re: The pound racer

Its time for Randy Goss to come up with something unique with a John D. tractor engine (Gas) on the front of a highly modified clipped wing T-6.

[LoveOldPlanes]

Re: The pound racer

All this talk about the next generation of Unlimited and composites and no one has mentioned the Cameron Mustang....? Its even listed in the Aircraft Spruce catalog, so word is out there on it.

http://www.cameronaircraft.com/P51/P51_photo_gallery/P51_photo_gallery_thumbs.htm

http://www.cameronaircraft.com/P51/cameron_aircraft.htm

Its a full size take on the P-51 done in composites. Weight was right around half of a Warbird P-51, with something like 12 total parts for the airframe. It was originally designed to be a turboprop aircraft, but I believe the flying example has been since outfitted with a vintage recep engine.

Since I don't know, anyone able to fill me in on why things like this aren't allowed by weight in an Unlimited class...and why there hasn't been more interest in this approach?

Randolph

[wyhdah]

Re: The pound racer

I don't necessarily disagree. I just think that if you did remove the weight rule, it would STILL be a while before someone gets a non-warbird engine that's competitive at the top of unlimited Gold, no matter what the weight rule is. It could happen overnight if we were already seeing Dreadnought-class speeds out of the Sport Class, but we aren't *quite* there yet. Well, we weren't there LAST year... but Relentless didn't have that gnarly exhaust augmenter last year either... Let's just say that with more development on the squeezed Falconer and more secret s#!* on the NXTs, I'll be paying more attention to the sport class results than I ever have before.

I completly agree with you on that point. That is why I believe if the rules HAD been different we would already see something like that since the Pond Racer. I agree there is no overnight powerplant to break into the Unlimited class nor will there be until the rules change.

[Skyracer]

Re: The pound racer

Wasn't there a Cameron Mustang racer project in the works with an Allison? Seems this was bantered about awhile back.