FWIW-My Take

[Bigger Al]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Just my $.02, but when you purchase a ticket to see an event like the air races, do you not accept the fact that you could be putting yourself in harm's way?

I do. Without reservation.

Diehard fans and informed fans do. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the spectators are just average folks who are out to see the spectacle. Trying to inform the masses of the potential for hazard would kill the whole thing more quickly, IMHO. We live in such a "Nanny State" that any and all risks are percieved as too great, and therefore become the targets of some doo-gooder's attention. There are those who believe that they can legislate and regulate life to the point that it's absolutely safe. I fear that this year's tragic events at Reno will put the microscope on full power. That can never be a good thing when the people turning the focus knob don't have a clue what they're looking at.

[Bill Marsh]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Nit picking.... i hope not, but

I remember many years back at reno you heard abouy pilots that were new to this sport making stupid mistakes, (taxiing or flying... whatever) and they were yanked out of the competition... banned???)

I always had in the pit of my stomach the feeling that some of these pilots had serious issues with competency

this thread and is questions are very valid as to keeping only "exceptional skilled pilots" allowed to perform

just because some body shows up with an airplane and goes through the "required" hoops maybe needs to be "rethinked"

its like the "buddy system" pilot / friends getting checked out in a A/C type rating buy - off (very bad.... )!!!!

the proof of the dangers is in the stats... dozens of dead performers at reno brings the "real" reality to mind

hey..... after 30+ years or so, reno has some how survived.... for me its the "over the edge MIRACLE''

who knows how long it will last.

GEE MOST of my posts seem to be with a "crumudgen" attitude

but thats just me BMarsh

[turneight]

Re: FWIW-My Take

All of the pilots out their are exceptionally skilled aviators, and every one of them have a complete understanding of the inherent risk at hand when they climb into the flight deck. That is what makes each and every one of them HERO'S in my book. I remember when I was on the BEAR crew and asked JP after he qualified in 03, "was that fun"? being a green horn on a crew I was thinking we got the plane up to race specs finally getting John back in the seat and all and his answer was "NO" the Bear is never fun to fly. Not the reply I was expecting, but I started looking at the other pilots after a race and none of them look like it was "fun". But a win lose or draw followed by a return to the pits puts a smile on there face, when in all actuality the body and plane are pushed to the extreme of physical endurance no matter what they are flying, yet they continue to do it day after day knowing the risk.

RARA has incorporated as much safety into a high risk situation as possible making adjustments along the way, trying to see into the future the best they can. Their is no way to avoid the "what if's" because something is always going to pop up. Pylons have been moved, starting shoots have been changed, dead lines moved, no sonic booms over the crowd any more, increase in security, the list is long and getting longer every year. Safety briefings with the pilots, changes in routines, pilot point of are all taken into consideration through out the year. No body shows up blind except the spectators. I understand the concern of the unfortunate incidents that have happened this year, ( GOD BLESS ALL INVOLVED ) and what could be done so it may not happen in the future. From the sounds of you on this message board for most of us, this is not the first year we have had to deal with so many tears shed. Please don't get me wrong, I have and would rather always shed tears of joy, but this has been a heart wrenching week at the races for everyone.

What should be done? Close the pits off to crew only! NOOOO WAAAAYY. Move the grand stands, limit the spectators, slow the planes down, the pylons have already been moved so the planes are practically are flying on a circle track, VOS is shorter. Who knows, RARA and the PILOTS will do the best they can to keep the joy of air racing alive in all of us!!

My answer is.... RACE...RACE LIKE YOU STOLE IT!!!

See you at the finish line

Chipster

[Leo]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Where I was headed Dash (and not too clearly) was that with all the safety innovations for the drivers and the spectators, there is still a crowd seated around some very heavy objects moving fast that cannot always be predictible. There will always be some risk.
I have always felt that RARA has tried it's damndest to make this as safe as possible, constantly making adjustments, some very unpopular, to keep it that way.
But hey, I'm just a fan.

[WVRACEFAN]

Re: FWIW-My Take

I think the jet class rules need to be reevaluated. Perhaps opening up the class to faster jets and allowing mods on the L-39's was a mistake. Or maybe just the number of planes in a heat needs to be lowered. I agree that the pilot qualification procedure needs to be looked at, but I think that particular accident would have occurred regardless of who was in the cockpit.

Seven or eight planes in such a tight gaggle in a tight turn is a recipe for disaster. Even the gold unlimiteds are already spread out quite a bit before they come by the home pylon the first time do to the wide variance in their speeds. I think the jets are too evenly matched to safely race this way.

IMHO, if that plane had came into the pits or the stands, or if several had gotten tangled up with it, the Reno Air Races would have been over as soon as the remainder of the field was recovered. Just my .02 worth

[Race5]

Re: FWIW-My Take

IMHO, the jet class is DONE. I don't think they will be back. When Brad's accident occured, there were several thing happening at once. The Viper powered L-29 had gotten beat around so badly coming through the valley that he maydayed, and called himself off the course. In the process he came WAY over the deadline, pits, and crowd. I looked straight up above our position in the T-6 pits watching him, then looked down just as Brad went in. We felt the concussions from the explosion, and felt the heat from the blast. Then on Sat during the Jet Gold heat, the T-33 came WAY inside 8, then pulled off the course going straight over us. If ,God forbid, another jet would have come around 8 and mid-aired with the T-33, the T-33 would have come straight into us. I have never been worried about any other class, including the unlimiteds coming into the crowd, but the jets were just pushing it IMHO. I decided on Sunday to get further down by the stands any time the jets were in the air, just to give myself a bit more room between me and them. Oh and before anyone accuses me of just being a jet hater, I am not. I was really looking forward to seeing some "real" racing in the class this year with the new and varied entries. They are just simply too much for the course.

[Leo]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Kinda my thought. I loved seeing them being competative, but it seemed too much. On Thursday afternoon we were watching from out in the valley and when they went by they seemed to just be wrong. Bouncing around in each others turbulence and bunched up. A lot of "wagging" from side to side in the formation. My son even commented that he hoped they got thru the first turn OK and then we saw the result.
From that point on my perception was they were on the edge of using that course. I've never flown anything near that fast, no expert by a long margin, but from then on my "pucker factor" was way up when they raced. The speeds were up, maybe too much.

[David E. Wells]

Re: FWIW-My Take

I Agree Totally with vwracefan...training pilots to fly in that environment...High Speeds, close quarters with Huge Jet wash & tip Vortices would demand lots of experience not available at PRS. Where are you going to get it? I remember seeing a PILE of wrecked Questaires and a fatality when the Sport Class started and that class seems Very Safe now. The remainder of the Jet Races seemed to be Sanely flown. BUT, after seeing the First Jet Race that Day and the 1st Lap of the 2nd...Hearing the Fatal WHOOMP in the second, I Knew Exactly what happened IMMEDIATLY...all the way down in the Static Area...D.

[Bill Marsh]

Re: FWIW-My Take

EXHIBITION RACING...........

ONE PLANE AT A TIME

ONE WARM UP LAP AND ONE HOT LAP

THATS IT

FIT IT INTO THE SCHEDULE ( this is a propeller racing deal )

________________

Talked to some who e-mailed yesterday.... she was at the races, i was not.

She is a older ga pilot..... she said to me and i quote, ".... if you want the reno venue to die a quick death.... have more jets next year .... you will get what you deserve.... this is way over the top"

she added..... "its about racing prop war birds and the like... this is suicide"

i was not there , but i can imagine what it was like... i tend to agree with her views

Bmarsh

[MRussell]

Re: FWIW-My Take

She sounds frantic.

Hysteria is never the right option. Ever.

[Steve H]

Re: FWIW-My Take

She sounds frantic.

Hysteria is never the right option. Ever.

I do not believe that she is frantic or hysterical. I did not feel safe at all in a front row box seat during the jet races. Especially when the jet had to pull up over the pits. I have been a spectator every year since 1999. This is the first time I felt unsafe in any way. I am not a pilot . I am not a sefety expert either. Just looking at things from a common sense viewpoint. I think the jets are too much for that course.

Steve

[Bill Marsh]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Looking for a point of clarity


Just throwing this on the table people.... someone Please repond as to the decision responsible


Sure i was not there this year but with all the knowledge base and (i agree) alot of forward thinking by people who know air racing.....

was there anyone concerned that this jet bronze... silver and gold had inherent safety issues during the discussions whether to do the "full tilt" jet racers at reno?

With all respect for a pilot fatality.... i am more concerned about the "mixing up" of the A/Cs during the race (turbulance, wash, jockeying for space, et al for the future)

ive only flown a taylorcraft for 20 min in my life, so i dont known dick f*** about what happened... BUT you would think out there some one has the esperience about these matters.

Bmarsh

"Experience is what you get just after you need it."

[turneight]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Does anybody remember the mig exhibition race with afterburners doing the full tilt boogie around this same track? Everybody was in aah. Those migs were burning up the track flying some of the tightest lines I have ever witnessed. Only thing was, they were spread out front to back but all going the same speed or very close to it. I think the response to that race clicked in someones mind and next thing you know the L-39 race came to be. Maybe this should be a timed event with built in spacing some how! The concern seems to be the jets are equally matched in performance, will the "unlimited sport class" become equally matched as well, then what? This is a good subject and of corse we would all like to feel safe under the circumstances. I would hate to see any class of racer grounded. A solution to the situation is better than shelving a driver and his/her ride.

[51fixer]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Does anybody remember the mig exhibition race with afterburners doing the full tilt boogie around this same track? Everybody was in aah. Those migs were burning up the track flying some of the tightest lines I have ever witnessed. Only thing was, they were spread out front to back but all going the same speed or very close to it. I think the response to that race clicked in someones mind and next thing you know the L-39 race came to be. Maybe this should be a timed event with built in spacing some how! The concern seems to be the jets are equally matched in performance, will the "unlimited sport class" become equally matched as well, then what? This is a good subject and of corse we would all like to feel safe under the circumstances. I would hate to see any class of racer grounded. A solution to the situation is better than shelving a driver and his/her ride.

I remember Mojave running a handicap jet race.
Rich

[MRussell]

Re: FWIW-My Take

I do not believe that she is frantic or hysterical. I did not feel safe at all in a front row box seat during the jet races. Especially when the jet had to pull up over the pits. I have been a spectator every year since 1999. This is the first time I felt unsafe in any way. I am not a pilot . I am not a sefety expert either. Just looking at things from a common sense viewpoint. I think the jets are too much for that course.

Steve

Please don't misunderstand what I said. Incidentally, I agree with you (and perhaps her) about the perceived safety issue where the jets are concerned, but I think the way you typed it out in a metered, calm manner is the only way to go. Hysterical declarations of fear are neither necessary nor appropriate, as we endeavour to protect and grow air racing as a healthy spectator sport. I mean no personal offense; I simply don't support anyone who exhibits a panic-like reaction to anything.