FWIW-My Take

[turneight]

Re: FWIW-My Take

I remember Mojave running a handicap jet race.
Rich

Mojave, that was a while ago, I have only heard stories. One of them is the Bear landed on one leg and bent the purple prop. I was working down in Mojave when the Pond Racer was testing and at the Reno races when..........sigh, to much info.

PM me, so I can learn more

[Ron101502]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Questions for the historians, A. isn't it true RARA didn't really want the jets back but the jet pilots offered to pay for their insurance so were allowed to race, and B. didn't they try to race jets including F-86s back in the late 1960s or early 70s and realized not only wasn't it competitive but they couldn't keep the jets from breaking the deadline?

I've heard these things but don't know if it is fact or rumor, maybe someone can say for sure.

The power of wake turbulence is incredible, a couple weeks ago I got beat up pretty good 30 miles behind a 747-400 that was 1000 feet above me with the wind light and dead on the tail, and I was also in a 747-400. A slight offset smoothed it out. I also remember landing at MCO one night in perfectly calm skies in an A-320. A 737 had landed in front of us but was already clear of the runway. At 200 feet we caught his wake and rolled about 25 degrees, recovered and landed but scary.
Even more weird, I was on final in a DC-9-50 to runway 27R at ORD and got rolled 20 degrees from a DeHavilland Dash 7 turboprop!

Racing is always going to be dangerous but we need to be sure that the pilots are qualified and the spectators are safe. Remember the Thunderbird who almost took out the static display area about 5 years ago and finally the Thunderbirds agreed to agree to ICAS standards that don't allow energy toward the crowd? (Maybe the fact that a few USAF generals were out front had something to do with that!) I'm sure RARA knows all of this and will make some changes but I will be surprised if the jets are still racing next year, unless they want to do like Red Bull and do time trials but everybody knows who would win that. And remember the T-6 class has had the most mid airs because the airplanes are so close in performance but are so slow they aren't a danger to the crowd, and the L-39s are pretty close in performance too and a midair with them might endanger the crowd.

I'm a jet pilot by trade, less than 1000 hours in recips, and I like watching jets race but don't want to jeopardize the crowd and the future of unlimited air racing, and as a "gearhead" I enjoy the unlimiteds a lot more than the jets even if they are a few knots slower because of the "hot rodding" involved.

Respectfully submitted,

Ron Henning

[51fixer]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Mojave, that was a while ago, I have only heard stories. One of them is the Bear landed on one leg and bent the purple prop. I was working down in Mojave when the Pond Racer was testing and at the Reno races when..........sigh, to much info.

PM me, so I can learn more

The Bear couldn't get the gear down in time during a dead stick landing. He touched down in front of me, the gear wasn't quite locked, it folded and it slid on by in a shower of sparks. It wore a steel Aeroproducts fan then. I was a 15 yo kid in shock and looked down and saw my camera in my hands. I hadn't even thought to take a picture. I later shot some pics in the pits of the prop sitting on the ground. The prop blades stopped in a X that held the Bear off the ground pretty much and kept airframe damage to a min. I had sunburn blisters so bad from that day. My 1st real time in the desert watching racers. I'm glad my dad sacrificed a weekend to take me.
Rich

[turneight]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Yes, that is the one.

[Danmilo]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Watching the T-33 pull off the course on Saturday's heat was pretty educational. You may remember he was leading the pack and couldn't hold the line at his speed (just my observation). He bolted up to the 1,500 altitude and rejoined the race after flying behind the stands. I was in the GA stands and thought "Holy Crap, that happened fast!"
Great recovery by the pilot but it sure highlighted the amount of energy the pilots had to manage around the course.

Dan

[Box A35]

Re: FWIW-My Take

I heard the T-33 pulled inside up and out on Saturday because his ailerons locked up. If that is the case, I am sure the only thing he was thinking of would be altitude.

At least that is what (I would consider) a reliable source told me.

[Race5]

Re: FWIW-My Take

I too heard a crew member mention "controlability" issues. If that was really the case though, wtf was he doing racing on Sunday?!?! I doubt any kind of control lock would be a simple overnite fix. I hope that if it was the case, that every single part was checked until the problem was found and replaced.

[51fixer]

Re: FWIW-My Take

I heard the T-33 pulled inside up and out on Saturday because his ailerons locked up. If that is the case, I am sure the only thing he was thinking of would be altitude.

At least that is what (I would consider) a reliable source told me.

There isn't any reasonable explanation for a control surface to lock and not require extensive maint. The T-33 has hyd boost on the ailerons. If they locked he would have continued in a rolling maneuver even after pulling up.
Rich

[forbergler]

Re: FWIW-My Take

I can find a point to agree with in most of these posts. We all know what we're getting into(the race pilots and seasoned fans), and we have to accept some danger. But in all honesty, the next jet race after thursday's tragic crash, I picked up my 2 y/o and we went down to the static display. That heat on thursday those jets were going faster around the course than anything I'd ever seen in 20 some years of attendance. That L-29 came way over the deadline, and it seemed to me that he was going too fast for that last turn. I don't want the jets to stop, or any other class to go away, or to be further away from the racing. I think the jet course needs to be re-drawn so that there is more of a straight away in front of the stands, with the final turn further away. If the jet course was shifted to the west, that could work too, so that they are turning around pylon one at show center. All week I was nervous for the pilots, but after Brad went down, I feared for those on the ground when the jets took to the air. I'd never felt vulnerable as a spectator before, not from the unlimiteds or even the jets from years past.
All in all, it was a great week and a terrible week, and I will continue to be there until I die, or they stop racing.
I will also continue to lift my beers to Steve, Brad and Gary for a long time. They died doing what they loved, for us, because we love it too.

[Race5]

Re: FWIW-My Take

There isn't any reasonable explanation for a control surface to lock and not require extensive maint. The T-33 has hyd boost on the ailerons. If they locked he would have continued in a rolling maneuver even after pulling up.
Rich

I didn't know how the controls on a T-33 were setup, but it sure sounded to be something that wouldn't be an easy or overnite fix. IF he had a lock though, they must have locked in a neutral position for a split second as he didn't bank until after he pitched up and went straight off the course.

[Danmilo]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Forbergler, I agree with your assessment on the course, I even felt uncomfortable in the stands. No wonder on Sunday I managed to end up way over by the jet pits during their race There was a lot of hardware between me and that last pylon.

Dan

[MRussell]

Re: FWIW-My Take

I didn't know how the controls on a T-33 were setup, but it sure sounded to be something that wouldn't be an easy or overnite fix. IF he had a lock though, they must have locked in a neutral position for a split second as he didn't bank until after he pitched up and went straight off the course.

INCIDENTALLY, it was an easy overnight fix. The crew chief contacted some folks who flew the plane in active duty and got deep into the manuals overnight.

Turns out sometimes an air bubble occasionally gets into the control lines for the ailerons during zero- or negative-G flight.

They determined that if you bump the airbrake switch momentarily, it purges the hydraulics and restores control authority instantly. That was the fix.

[Race5]

Re: FWIW-My Take

Well I'll be damned. Learn something new every day. Thanks for the explaination!

[n6mod]

Re: FWIW-My Take

INCIDENTALLY, it was an easy overnight fix. The crew chief contacted some folks who flew the plane in active duty and got deep into the manuals overnight.

And from the crew "We got some good help from the Canadians."

I'm assuming he was referring to the Snowbirds, many of whom, both flight and ground crew, have extensive experience with T-33s.

-Zandr

[G. van Dyk]

Re: FWIW-My Take

I would like to hear from someone who was at the pilots briefing on Friday morning.

I may be mistaken, but I think I noticed the air-start classes hold thier line and not begin their bank till after guide pylon on the pace lap, starting Friday. I may be mistaken, but I don't recall that before Friday, and the racers seemed to be spaced out much better from then on. Were the pilots reminded of this on Friday?

Gerry