What is air racing ?

[First time Juke]

Re: New stuff into practise....

(I am still amazed every time I see a bird flying. For instance how they land and take off. Last time when a duck took off....it's tail points down.. elevator usually points up when taking off.)

Well in my 20 years of CAFE Foundation research we never did flight testing on ducks but you are corrrect that ducks do put down their tail when they land. It does the function of flaps in lowering landing speed. They control the pitch by moving their wings forward, a wing motion that would be more like the F-14 swinging its wing forward and aft.

And Yes the CAFE Foundation is still alive and well invloved in some very interesting projects about the future of Aviation.

'C J' Stephens

Hello C J Stephens,

I am glad to hear about your outstanding work for the efficient flying.

I am not drawing a duck that is for sure, but I will incorporate 4 new aspects that I hope to reduce drag at different stages of flight. I say new because I never saw them used in a conventional propplane in this extent.

Those three things are:

1. lifting body principle
2. ground effect
3. weight cutting gear arrangement
4. weight shifting " fish tail " tail section

I have shown a few of these "gizmos" in my drawings for unlimited racer years ago...this may be the modest start to experiment these working details in action..and only way to really see if they work better than conventional system and increase efficiency like I hope they do is to arrange a competition with other designs in R/C scale.

None of these inventions are totally new just the way how I have incorporated them is new ( the fishtail may be totally new )...right now it still looks little bit raw in 3 views.

Prospect for the maiden flight in 2010.

I am not sur if C J or anyone ever sees them flying in commercial use, but at least R/C model is doable with low cost.

What I really look forward to see is if the plane outruns the others with same fuel and still takes off and lands in a shorter distance...and indeed takes off with double the payload.

If that happens I have succeeded. I expect lot of bugs in the concept to be solved on the way...this is more fun than crossword puzzles anyhow.

[mustang5151]

Re: What is air racing ?

I have to Beg to Differ with whomever said a Cessna 150 is NOT a classic. It most certainly is....to say it is not is to say a 120/140 is not as well. I have kicked around the idea of buying an older straight tail 150, and putting around in it. (Unfortunately I have this innate need for speed...so that will have to wait for another day)
I have spent more hours instructing in the 150/152 than I care to recall, but it is a trusty bird, and can take enormous amount of abuse, and keep right on going. There will come a day when more people repsect the trusty 150, and see it as a classic like I do........just my two cents.

I have to agree with you. I have a few hundred hours in the mighty 150, and it ain't the fastest, prettiest, etc... bird in the air, but they made a pile of pilots over the years, and they can be fun at times. I have flown backwards in one(strong headwind at altitude)done zero g's too many times to count in one(the floating pen), put one on its back and literally slid down a ways in one, and took one up to 12,600 feet(from an airport 628' ASL). Also, I've seen a taildragger version with leading edge slats, wing fences and a Robertson STOL kit, land at 10 knots fully controllable. If that ain't performance, I don't know what is. So kudos to that little bug-smasher.(100 horses and all)

[First time Juke]

Re: New stuff into practise....

None of these inventions are totally new just the way how I have incorporated them is new ( the fishtail may be totally new )...right now it still looks little bit raw in 3 views.

Prospect for the maiden flight in 2010.

Just wanted to inform that now it looks pretty good. Lot of work ahead. I got rid of the fish-tail idea...ground effect at take off and lifting body are still there and extremely lite retractable gear arrangement.

I am looking for interested financing people for this project. I know some interested builders and engineers already. I will give a peek for those who really want to join this project and possibly fund it. Otherwise it is classified.

yours,

Juke

[Bill Marsh]

Re: What is air racing ?

Hey Juke.... great ideas... change is good.

What you are proposing is competition , this is thekey word (mixing and matching) with or without raw speed / mph / distance / completed laps and so on.

I have in recent times discussed this with David E. Wells.... IMHO he has alot of good (visionary type) ideas he has.

In a few words putting a overall (decathlon) style competation... (some static and some dynamic)
1. speed
2. crowd favorite
3. realistic performance
4.VALUE ADDED for all us wing nuts
5. Heartiage activities
6. and what ever

As i said Mr. Wells and some other posters (sorry... about the names???) have some great ideas that I feel are fantastic

Will be traveling on business for many months and cant post on this board, so i wont have the opportunity to contribute to this thread.

One last thought.... my business is in "Value added" manufacturing of products.

IF THERE WAS AN AIR SHOW THAT PUT ON A EVENT WITH
(1) P51's, ET ALL (USA A/C).... ASIAN A/C's.... EUROPEAN a/C'S

(2) PRE ww2 era
(3) korea era
(4) VIET NAM era
(5) A hearitage fly by show(s)
(6) spectator (crowd voting interaction)
(7) justy buy the a/c's owners some av gas ... they would come... i think so!

Well lets just say , i would be looking for season tickets.

Hey Mr. Wells .... pls. run with this idea as per our discussion a few months ago.

Gotta go to work....c-ya in a few months

BM

[eagledriver]

Re: What is air racing ?

Well, just by it's nature, racing is about speed.

But there are other venues out there besides Reno and Red Bull for the average Joe to go racing:

http://www.us-airrace.org/index.html

http://www.sportairrace.org/

There are other flying competitions that can be just as challenging as air racing and aerobatics. And open to your basic GA airplane. Unfortunately, no one really does it in the US.

There is Rally Flying and Precision Flying competitions held mainly in Europe. The next international event is: http://www.ried2008.at/
But the website is just a holder at the moment. Do a Google search on Rally Flying and Precision Flying to get some sites with pics and results.

[First time Juke]

Re: What is air racing ?

What kinda show in the Fla Sun'n Fun ?

Is it just a gathering ?

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: What is air racing ?

What kinda show in the Fla Sun'n Fun ?

Is it just a gathering ?

Juke,

I'ts really an almost week long air show/fly in... It's one of EAA's really big events so some of the best performers want to be there...

Quite an enjoyable event, many different aircraft there some from way north if the weather cooperates.

If you're planning on taking it in during a trip to say, Disney World, you could EASILY stay in Orlando and do the family thing in that area and make a day trip to the event from there.. .

Dig through the archives on the main search thing on site. I think we've had some reports from there from the two or three times I've gone..

Wayne

[First time Juke]

Re: What is air racing ?

(I am still amazed every time I see a bird flying. For instance how they land and take off. Last time when a duck too off....it's tail points down.. elevator usually points up when taking off.)

Well in my 20 years of CAFE Foundation research we never did flight testing on ducks but you are corrrect that ducks do put down their tail when they land. It does the function of flaps in lowering landing speed. They control the pitch by moving their wings forward, a wing motion that would be more like the F-14 swinging its wing forward and aft.

And Yes the CAFE Foundation is still alive and well invloved in some very interesting projects about the future of Aviation.

'C J' Stephens

I opened my big mouth in a finnish aviation site about my project and now when well over 10 000 hits at the thread I found about this;

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2005/jul/HQ_05204_Fifth_Centennial_Challenge.html

Am I too late for the 250 000 USD prize ? Or would I have to be a US citizen ?

rgds,

Juke


PS ; Wayne...I have heard only good/positive comments about Sun'n Fun from those who have been there.

[mayday51]

Re: What is air racing ?

Juke,

Sun-N-Fun would be a good trip/visit.
It has quite a vast cross section of experimental aircraft and lots of discussions/seminars as to how to (hands on building skills).

Air demos & fly-bys do wonders for you too.

The networking to manufacturers and other "prime" engineering can be a great help in design and application.(not to mention the comaraderire)

do a search on the web,and brouse their site for a glimpse.
It is not RENO,but can be quite a worth while trip.

Beware,our sun is quite intense, as a matter of fact our climate may be
the inversion of Finland's.....extreme heat and humidity ...high UV and
sun (most times)...figure on sunblock and lots of water !

[David E. Wells]

Re: What is air racing ?

Do they still run the Sun 100 'Air Race'...timed event over a 100mi course, very interesting. If you're going, get your accommodations Early! I found it to be like a wintertime Oshkosh or like summertime on the Karelian Peninsula! sort of...D.

[First time Juke]

My small AC design !

.... like summertime on the Karelian Peninsula! sort of...D.

Have you been here ?


------------------


I have a question;

Since the aviation business in sport flying is almost non-existent in Finland would there be a designer team and builder available for a small AC capable of 210 mph with also STOL properties and clean looks ? Fully aerobatic and range about 300 miles.

Sized as follows;

span; 15 feet
length; 9 feet
height; 3 ft 2 inches ( gear extented )
power; 30-40 hp
weight; 140 lbs ( empty )

I keep the 3-views still as confidential.

If interested to join the PAV competition....this is the winner for it ( small advertisement never hurts right ? ).


yours truly,

Juke

[David E. Wells]

Re: My small AC design !

Have you been here ?

Only wished...but I"ve read, seen photos, and studied of the struggles you all have been through to keep it Finnish, I hope someday I'll get to visit...D.

[First time Juke]

Re: My small AC design !

Only wished...but I"ve read, seen photos, and studied of the struggles you all have been through to keep it Finnish, I hope someday I'll get to visit...D.

I think God helped us...there was -42 C in 1939-1940 when Soviets first tried to level Finland.

It started with massive bombing of our capitol Helsinki. Little girl was the first victim in the bombing, but the son of the national artist Axel Gallen-Kallela was first casualty in the war. Captain Gallen-Kallela went to arrest a downed soviet airman ( AAA worked to some extent ) who fired a handgun through the door of the shed he was hiding at.

Extraordinary or what ?!

Germans did the same to communists in Guernica few years earlier.

[First time Juke]

A problem to solve !

I made this microracer in the spirit of the PAV competition ( on going..I am not eligible to attend ). I have introduced it in the finnish aviation site and more than 100 000 hits so far in the thread.

Some of the critics have been constructing, but many "old school" pilots think I am trying to invent the perpetual machine..and think I am little weird.

Here is the problem:

I have twin tailwheels and one main wheel that is retractable. ( Plane has lifting body and forward sweep wing mix ).

Now the issue is...when the tail wheels are up and speed at 50-60 km/h and plane responds to alltrailing edge lenght aileron ( or flaperon ) rapidly ( roll rate of the plane 0,7 secs ) and is in fact steerable with elevator and flaperons at this stage...and the tailwheels are fixed..they don't turn...but the main wheel turns with the rudder control...in proportion 1/4..to be able to steer it when taxiing...some say this is not controllable AC at any kind of side wind....I claim it steers much better than any AC around so far...but needs a comprehensive study and training in order to master tha craft properly ! Tiller type steering was discussed too. Would it work on this ?

What is your opinion on this matter ?

Feel free to comment !


rgds,

Juke


PS: I also enclosed a diagram of a possible braking/landing procedure..this AC is supposedly able to fly at 20 degree AoA and not stalling at that situation yet..and not tip stalling in the first place. This caused a lot of negative critic too..since that is not a procedure landing pattern.

Comment on this too if you feel that I am wrong or off the scale.

I am trying to get funding on this and this could be the Go-Kart Racer of the future...so this is important project for me.

[DPKII]

Re: What is air racing ?

Juke,

Interesting design. I hope you do build a model and get to do some test flying.

I see your point about directional control in a crosswind. You will have to balance on the single main wheel until the tail is down. Gliders do it.

Question- Why did you design it with twin vertical fins, rudders and tailwheels? Twin rudders make sense on a twin where each is in the prop blast for maximum efficiency. Your rudders and vertical fins are outside the prop arc and will be very limited in athority until airspeed is attained. Not a good thing for a tailwheel airplane.

I see the point of only one main wheel for weight savings but you may have missed one key factor. With your twin verticals and tailwheels your design will have to have a very strong (heavy) horizonatal fin to take the stresses. Also you have double linkages to twin rudders- more weight. All this weight is added to the tail where you don't want it. I think the change to a single rudder/tailwheel and conventional gear might actually be the same weight or be lighter. At least the weight will be near the cg.

I think twin verticals will also have more aerodynamic drag than a single.

Just my thoughts.
David