Tommy Rose Pre-Crash Photo: Source?

[AAFO_WSagar]

We have recieved a very graphic photo of the pre-crash failure of the tailplane on Tommy Rose's Questiar Venture. We share the submitters belief that this photo could well be of use in illistrating the forces placed on the sport class airplanes at the current speeds achieved in the class and would like to share the photo.

However, without knowing the source and getting permission from same, we can not do this. If anyone knows of this photo, it is a view from somewhere in the pit area likely of the airplane with the horiz stab in failure mode with the airplane just beginning the pitch down.

Thanks in advance for any information you might have. Please private email me if you do have source information.

Wayne Sagar
wsagar@aafo.com

[GWB]

I have seen a photo taken by a private individual from the stands - very graphic...I will try and find it, and the source...

[AAFO_WSagar]

We have received information for the source of the photo and have permission to use it however we see fit. However, after much soul searching, we've decided that the photo should not be published at this time.

That said, if anyone who is currently racing or a crewmember of a race team wishes to view this photo, we will forward a copy to you at your request.

send request via the email function of this board or to wsagar@aafo.com

Thanks to all who helped us find the photographer.

Wayne Sagar

[gsbloom]

Good move...

Thanks Wayne. I have a copy of it myself, and it is pretty heavy to be posted publically.

Not something you want kids to stumble on, family members, and the like.

I applaud your decision.

G

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Good move...

Originally posted by gsbloom
Thanks Wayne. I have a copy of it myself, and it is pretty heavy to be posted publically.

Not something you want kids to stumble on, family members, and the like.

I applaud your decision.

G

No disrespect intended to the family and friends, but how is that photo any more graphic or difficult than any other inflight breakup pre-crash aircraft photo?

The video of the C-130A wing coming off was played on headline news every 30 minutes, as was the shot of the Partenavia having both wings come off at an airshow a decade ago.

Mortality is something that aviators have to stare in the eye every day...it's a fact of the job. We all know it...Tommy Rose knew it. In fact, if you walk into almost any squadron ready room in the military, I'll bet you find a whole bookshelf of videos of crashes. It's not morbid curiosity that makes aviators interested in seeing events that took the lives of their brothers -- in many cases, there are life *saving* lessons to be learned. At a minimum it reminds every pilot how fragile their life is and makes them reinforce their belief that they don't want to be *that* guy.

I don't have any issues with Wayne not posting the photo...it's his choice and his website. I understand having respect for family members, but there's no reason to sugar coat the truth for the sake of it being "heavy".

[daveflyshi]

I have to agree with you Randy. I watch every year in recurrent ground videos that show the outcomes of different wrecks. They intention is that the education may help someone else. I understand that the commerical airline industries goals are a little different than this case, however, the education of anyone in racing, or considering racing maybe valuable.

I was in the stands, and watched the event. I was shocked at what appeared to be parts coming off prior to the impact. I do not have video, or pictures of it, but would be highly interested in seeing exactly what happened. I spent a lot of time around the two eggs behind the sport hanger, and noticed that the tail feathers did not appear to have carry throughs. If they are soley mounted on the tail cone, then that could explain a lot of the failure. However, I do not know the exact nature of the failure.

I too understand the feelings of the family. Wayne, it is your sight, and you do have the authority to do what you want on the site. I have total respect for that. However, I would be interested in the picture, for my own personal education. We all know that you are not trying to take advantage of a situation, or sensationalize it. That is the key. If you have recieved a request not to publish the picture, then I have even more respect for your honoring it. Reality televison has changed our world, showing all kinds of crashes, some even fatal, on national television. As Randy pointed out, the crash of the fire bomber. But even many years ago, it was happening, look at United in Souix City, the Air Florida crashes or any other number of crashes. On the General Aviation side, look at the loss of Charlie Hillard at Sun-n-Fun a number of years ago, as they showed the video on TV.

As long as the picture is not being posted for the wrong reasons, I can see no reason not to. But it is your choice.

dave hackett

[AAFO_WSagar]

The Reasons

I have to admit a very mixed feeling about the decision not to publish the photo for all to see. I can understand Randy's points as well as those who agree with not publishing it for all to see.

Initially, the photo was sent to us by one of the race crews, who do not wish to be identified. Their thought was that the crews working on the airplanes need to see this so they can see what they are up against. With that, I totally agree.

The long standing policy of aafo.com is to never show a fatal crash photo, be that after the fact or before. We have shots of the Miss Ashley II breakup sequence for instance, but decided not to publish them for this reason.

In this case, the photo in question is prior to the actual crash, everything is still attached but the bending of the horizontal stab is very clear and this only illistrates what happened, it does not show or explain how it happened.

Discussing this matter with a member of the Sport Class, whom I'm sure would also not want to be identified, his feeling was that the picture begged more questions than it answered and would fuel lots of speculation, likely incorrect speculation, and that would not be a good thing.

The FAA and NTSB do have copies of this photo and very likely, at some stage of their investigation, these will be made public by them. Until that time, I think we'd be better off if we did not publish the photo.

This is not out of some misguided feeling that we need to "candy coat" anything. We're all adults here (for the most part) these things happen and we all know that. So do car wrecks, bathtub accidents and every other sort of accidental thing that happens to humans living everyday lives..

I'm sorry if our decision rubs some people the wrong way, I should likely have tried to find the author of the photo in a less public way. At the time, I was trying to honor a request by the submitter of the photo and felt it would be best to publish it if we could find the photographer and receive credit.

For now, at least, we're going to stick by our decison.

Thanks for understanding,
Wayne Sagar

[daveflyshi]

Well, Wayne, like I said, if you had good reasons....

Thanks for the explanation. I would still like to see the picture, and there are probably a few others who will feel the same way, but your not publishing the picture will not draw any further comments from me.

Keep up the good work.

dave hackett

[gsbloom]

Re: Sorry to see...

Originally posted by AAFO_WSagar
The long standing policy of aafo.com is to never show a fatal crash photo, be that after the fact or before. We have shots of the Miss Ashley II breakup sequence for instance, but decided not to publish them for this reason...


...For now, at least, we're going to stick by our decison.

I am sorry to see that you decided to go against your long standing policy.

I have the absolute "best" video of the Miss Ashley II crash in my possession. I took the video with my own HI-8 camera and sent a copy to the Reno FSDO office for their investigation. They told me it was the clearest and most complete video of the accident that they were able to obtain. It has never been viewed outside the FAA other than on the ramp at Reno on that day to determine the usefullness of the video for accident investigation purposes.

I never posted or sold this video out of respect for the Levitz family. I provided a copy to the FAA for their use because they will keep it confidential, and use it for administrative safety and accident prevention purposes.

Of course, I am sure I will get flack from others here about my feelings about this, but it is just something I feel strongly about.

Glenn

[AAFO_WSagar]

Glenn,

The policy still stands. This photo is substantially "before" the actual crash and it illistrates exactly what is stated in the NTSB report, which we fairly often do publish.

We knew this decision, either way we went with it, would be a no win for us.

In this case, the reasons to show it outweigh those to not show it.

Wayne Sagar

[mayday51]

Wayne,

Ya did good.
......respectful,truthful,balanced.

....can ya work on the rest of the world for us?...

Thanks again,

Jim (Mayday51)

[AAFO_WSagar]

Jim,

Thanks... tough call... one that would have drawn mixed reactions however we went with it..

Wayne Sagar