I give you xp-72 Republic 4360 powered mustang/thunderbolt influenced potential racer!
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Re: speaking of radial engine p-51's
Quoted from Wikipedia:
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"Note: Test pilot Tom Bellinger stated flatly that the no flights ever exceeded 500 mph.
The dash 13 engine was not supercharged. With the planned but never installed dash 19 engine (with a remote supercharger) rated at 3,650 HP at 25,000 ft. (3,000 HP at sea level) a top speed of 504 mph at approximately 25,000 feet was expected.
Planned further development of the dash 19 engine was expected to yield approx 4,000 hp and a speed of 540 mph at 25,000 ft."
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Imagine that. The 4360 was in front, but the shaft-driven supercharger was going to be BEHIND the pilot. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!
But what caught my eye with interest was a mention on the page of the stillborn XP-69:
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"The XP-72 development paralleled that of another Republic design, the XP-69 that was to be powered by an experimental forty-two cylinder Wright R-2160 radial engine mounted behind the pilot and driving contra-rotating propellers through an extension shaft.
The XP-69 was intended for high altitude operations and featured a pressurized cockpit and armament of two 37 mm cannon and four 0.5 in machine guns.
As the XP-72 displayed greater promise than the XP-69, the XP-69 was canceled on 11 May 1943 and an order for two XP-72 prototypes was placed on 18 June 1943."
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And...
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"The Wright Tornado or R-2160 was an experimental 42 cylinder 6 row liquid cooled aircraft engine (radial). It was proposed in 1940 of 2350hp for experimental aircraft such as the Republic XP-69."
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I have never heard of this engine. I did find some info about the beast:
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"The Wright R-2160 Tornado was the last liquid-cooled piston engine designed by Wright and packed 42 cylinders into an engine with a footprint similar to that of a gas turbine.
Imagine six banks of seven cylinders each, built as three independent 14 cylinder modules--ie, not a single six throw crankshaft, but three two-throw segments geared together by six lay-shafts that ultimately drive the propeller reduction gearing! The engine never actually flew, but its design and development make for fascinating reading (ISBN 9710847-0-X)."
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By "reading", he means the book written about it. The book has a picture of this monster on the cover too. What an engine that would have been, ( and what a nightmare to maintain, I imagine...).
Here's a link to it:
.Last edited by AirDOGGe; 12-27-2007, 09:08 PM. -
Re: speaking of radial engine p-51's
Oh what could have been!Originally posted by JET1I give you xp-72 Republic 4360 powered mustang/thunderbolt influenced potential racer!
Every time I'm stuffed into the econ seats of airliners wishing we could go FASTER, I'll try to remember what I'm about to say...
Man I wish the turbine engine had never been developed! There's something so.... human about recips.. we have recip bodies.. Our bodies don't even like turbine pumps running us.. they've tried.. I think, we need RECIP to survive...
IMAGINE where the technology would be today for aircraft engines had the turbine just not have been possible!
Actually, airliners would probably be as fast.. .probably a HELL of a lot more exciting!
What might an MD-11 or 747 look like, had they been dependent on RECIP technology and where it might have gone..
Whoh....
What am I thinking!
Who/what would burn all that kerosene!!
Ummnnnn diesel turbocompound recip AIRLINERS??
Somebody STOP me!!
Wayne Sagar
"Pusher of Electrons"Comment
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Re: speaking of radial engine p-51's
I like your thinking! In that scenario, our Thunderboats would still thunder! Too cool.Originally posted by AAFO_WSagarOh what could have been!
Every time I'm stuffed into the econ seats of airliners wishing we could go FASTER, I'll try to remember what I'm about to say...
Man I wish the turbine engine had never been developed! There's something so.... human about recips.. we have recip bodies.. Our bodies don't even like turbine pumps running us.. they've tried.. I think, we need RECIP to survive...
IMAGINE where the technology would be today for aircraft engines had the turbine just not have been possible!
Actually, airliners would probably be as fast.. .probably a HELL of a lot more exciting!
What might an MD-11 or 747 look like, had they been dependent on RECIP technology and where it might have gone..
Whoh....
What am I thinking!
Who/what would burn all that kerosene!!
Ummnnnn diesel turbocompound recip AIRLINERS??
Somebody STOP me!!
"And if they stare, just let them burn their eyes on your moving."Comment
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Re: speaking of radial engine p-51's
The XP-69 was a novel design but they were right to go for the XP-72. It was more conventional and saw the light of day, two were built and it did what it said it would do.
If you like the R-2160, I think you will like the links below.
Also the P&W H-3730 would have also been neat, sleeve valves. It was George Mead's obsession after he visited Napier. Killing the 3730 made way for the 4360.
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Re: speaking of radial engine p-51's
Yes, those are fascinating pictures. Thank you.
Amazing that they could fit so much in such a small package, but it's power rating seems poor for a 42 cyl engine being developed in '44. I imagine the 4360 was much less complicated to work on (and requires a lot less spark plugs at tune-up time)
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Re: speaking of radial engine p-51's
The project was cancelled in 1944. It began in 1939 and the R-2160 was forecasted to put out 2350 hp; over the coveted 1hp/cu in. The first R-2160 was supposedly run in Nov of 1940 and delivery to Wright Field set for 6/41.Originally posted by AirDOGGeAmazing that they could fit so much in such a small package, but it's power rating seems poor for a 42 cyl engine being developed in '44. I imagine the 4360 was much less complicated to work on (and requires a lot less spark plugs at tune-up time)
If we compare it to the R-2800, which officially began in 1937 and had a forecasted output of 1650 hp, I think you can see why the project had high hopes. Also, the R-2800 was over a foot larger in diameter than the R-2160. The R-2800 was running in 1937 and still is today while the R-2160 is less than a footnote in history.
On paper in 1939, the R-2160 gave you a lot less frontal area, with no air cooling and 700 more horsepower. But by 1943, the R-2800 was in full production and the complexity of the R-2160 resulted in delays and made the need vanish.Comment
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Re: speaking of radial engine p-51's
Although it was 42 cyl, keep in mind it was only 2160 c.i.. Personally, I find the power output quite amazing for its' time. Okay, there are 50% more sparkplugs than a 4360, but I'll bet they lasted longer and were easier to change.Originally posted by AirDOGGeAmazing that they could fit so much in such a small package, but it's power rating seems poor for a 42 cyl engine being developed in '44. I imagine the 4360 was much less complicated to work on (and requires a lot less spark plugs at tune-up time)Comment
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Re: speaking of radial engine p-51's
From all the info on large piston aero engines I have read, they just were not going to get much bigger or more powerful. The writing was on the wall, and they were devloped out as much as practical. Only a few engines ever made more than one horspower per pound, And when they did the GPH very high. And that means you have to carry more fuel and more weight. I wonder that if mr.whittle was never born, where large piston areo engnes would be at now. P&W VDT model of the 4360 and C-W 3350 turbo-compound, both made 3-4000hp. and where probley as good as it was going to get. But its still a nice dream.Comment
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