Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Wonderful topic and information. Keep it coming. PLEASE !! Rad
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TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
I know I have said it before but there are few forms nicer than Voodoo with the deck. Can't wait to see it with the scoop off and the deck on ( I know I've said that too).
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Originally posted by AAFO_WSagarSomeone pointed out to me rather critically the other day that this type of thread is sort of "pie in the sky"... I counter pointed that I'm pretty sure all of us who partake of same are pretty well aware of the "yellow brick road effect"
But these dreams, they sure are damn fun ey!
carry on
I'm sure Bruce Boland & Dave Zeuschel are smiling down from OZ...D.
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
'Razorback' vs. 'Turtledeck' - design styles defined:
Along with the P-51 Mustang, most of WW2's classic single-engined fighter aircraft came off the drawing boards w/'razorback'-style fuselage designs: P-36, P-40, Thunderbolt, Corsair, Hellcat, Hurricane, Spitfire, Bf-109, Ki-61 Tony, etc. - the 'wild boar' nickname describing their similarly shaped- sharp, sloped backs.
The more successful designs stayed in production throughout the conflict, and saw continuous refinement of their airframes and powerplants. The need for optimum fighter pilot visibility, quickly-rendered early birdcage canopy frameworks & razorback fuselages obsolete - in favor of modern bubble canopy styles for the cockpit, that are still state-of-the-art even on today's newest jet interceptors.
'Turtledeck'-style fuselage designs go all the way back to WW1 aircraft, featuring a smaller-scaled streamlined 'second deck', beginning behind the pilot's cockpit headrest, and tapering aft to the vert. tail. Turtledeck-designs were standardly-utilized for early automobiles as well- especially for roadsters and racing cars, and remained popular throughout the 1920s thru 1930s into WW2. The Grumman F4F/FM-2 Wildcat is a good example of a WW2 fighter design employing a turtledeck.
In regards to Unlimited air racers, we've seen many examples of fuselage turtledecks being adopted over the years for both original custom aircraft designs (Tsunami, Pond Racer, MAII) & used in modifying warbirds for air racing (the subject P-51s, Furias, Critical Mass, Czech Mate, Mr. Awesome, September Fury, etc.).
Most WW2 aviation buffs & P-51 afficionados know that the Merlin-powered razorback Mustangs were a wee-bit faster than their followup bubble-canopied variants, and turtledeck-modding a P-51 for Unlimited air racing exploits this fact. Here's a selection of photos to compare the visual external airframe differences between military stock 'razorback' vs. bubble canopy vs. 'turtledeck' racer (L-R/top-bottom):
1-t. Reno 1981 - Steve Hinton races Chino's Planes of Fame ultra-rare Allison-powered P-51A (N4235Y - s/n 43-6251) - Reno's first WW2 military stock razorback Mustang to compete in the Unlimited Class. Qualified as Race #91, and raced as #1 - 100 Day Wonder.
1-b. Tue. 9/14/82 - Pete Regina's P-51C #68 'Shangri-La' (N51PR - s/n 43-25147) was the next military stock Mustang razorback to race at Reno - Flown in competition by Skip Holm, after Skipper's main ride- #69 Jeannie was sidelined by mechanical gremlins. This Merlin-motored P-51 razorback later became Joe Kasparoff's crimson Race #97 'The Believer' (did not compete), and is presently Jim Beasley's- 'Princess Elizabeth'.
2-t. Thur. 9/15/05 - Gerry Gabe's P-51A Race #25 'Polar Bear' (N51Z - s/n 43-6006) rounding Outer Pylon 7 during Lap 6 of Heat 1-C, with pilot- Dave Morss at the controls, was the third & most-recent Reno razorback P-51 to see competition.
2-b. Mon. 9/12/05 - Dave Morss taxis-out Polar Bear for first day of Reno '05 qualifying time trials. A good comparison of subtle airframe differences between the Merlin (#68) & Allison (#25) razorback Mustang airframe profiles.
3.-t. Tue. 9/10/02 - Bob Button's turtledeck'd high-mod racing Mustang - #5 Voodoo (N551VC) approaches Pylon 7 during race pilot- Matt Jackson's qualifying run. (Compare this photo angle with similar shot of razorback #25 Polar Bear & stock bubble-canopy P-51D #2 below, to note streamlining differences of canopy styles.)
3-b. Wed. 9/10/80 - Ace Bob Love turns old Outer 6 Pylon on his qualifying run in P-51D Race #2 Hovey Mustang (N3580), which shows the D-model bubble canopy to good effect for comparison with the P-51A/B razorback birdcage style canopy & Voodoo's racing turtledeck/low profile mini-canopy. (Note: I'd bet that's probably Bob's good pal - photo-journalist - Ron Burda riding in back...lucky guy!)
4-t. Tue. 9/15/00 - Matt Jackson takes #5 Voodoo around Outer 4 Pylon during Lap 4 of Heat-2A to go for a 2nd-place finish. Excellent shot of Voodoo's turtledeck construction - compare with #5 in bubble-canopy configuration as shown below.
4-b. Tue. 9/13/05 - Bob Button drives Voodoo (sans-turtledeck w/bubble canopy fitted) past Outer 7 Pylon during Reno '05 Qualifying. Top & bottom photos well-illustrate comparison of high-mod Unlimited w/'Super-duper Stocker' configuration.
5-t. Sat. 9/14/85 - Crew Chief - Bill Kerchenfaut directs crew maintenance on John Crocker's exotic high-mod P-51 Unlimited - Race #6 Sumthin' Else (N51VC). Diffused light from passing clouds accent the beautiful Jim Larsen-designed turtledeck modification done on this Mustang. Note the streamlining difference from the stock P-51D bubble canopy.
5-b. Mon. 9/16/96 - David Price's stock P-51D - Race #49 Cottonmouth (N151DP) gets an engine test runup on the Stead Field ramp. Highlighting of the stock Mustang bubble canopy accents the smooth contouring of North American design work.
There are the examples of 'razorback' vs.- 'bubble-canopy' vs.- 'turtledeck' for clarification - next, we'll look at comparing turtledecks of the individual subject Unlimited Class P-51 racers.DBD
(P.S. - Many thanks for your kind words of appreciation in response to my postings.)
Last edited by BuckyD; 06-28-2008, 04:02 PM.
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Originally posted by Bill Marshthe yellow brick road goes on and on..... cool.
But these dreams, they sure are damn fun ey!
As for pie in the sky... I think Mr. Awesome and the 3350 "T-6" hybrid (sorry... oldsheimers, can't remember the name) are pretty pie in the sky..
While we're at it... So is Czech Mate and... hell.. SteadFast...
Ahh... a 3350 and cut down canopy on a ultra rare BearCat?
Who would do such a thing!
Dreaming is fun, sometimes, folks actually cut metal and build dreams!
No harm in dreams if you ask me!
carry on
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
The high altitude DB's went fast as they got the power up high where the airplane's drag was low. Bf-109K-2/4 were about 450 at 30,000 or so.
A -109E is about 340 at 5000, about the same for a Hispano according to some guys I spoke to...the three bladed props from the -111's or a DC-3 make them even slower.
I worked up a racer spec for a Hispano in the mid 80's. If one retracted the tailwheel, closed the main gear up, extended the ramps for the radiator inlets, and made a bigger spinner/cowling and a sleeker windshield, closed the slats, and with a Z prop gear and blower gear on the otherwise stock Merlin 500 at 2000 hp; it was proposed to go 400 at 5000 feet.
TWA was bought by Carl Icahn and I never got to try it out as the money went to other, safer places!
Chris...
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Okay CM.......
So , for s***s and grins.......... any one care to guess as to the comparison between these RR and the DB 109's (10 year apart mgf. date)
Since we ARE going to and froe in the time continuim.... i know this is a big stretch..... but what the hey
I hope this does not lead to a 3350 or a Whittle jet powered BF 109.....
the yellow brick road goes on and on..... cool.
BMarsh
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Bill,
Those pics are stills from the UA movie "Battle of Britain", 1969.
The Spanish Air Force leased out a ton of Hispano HA1112's (and their 111 bombers, too) and were flown mostly by Spanish Air Force pilots. They were often led by the late, great Gerald Martin of CAF fame.
Those ships are post war Spanish builds with RR Merlin 500's and four bladers.
Chris...
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Regarding the M 109 photos on the thread..................
HEY thoes are RR v 12s (the V is right side up kind???? )
Did they (the germans or spainyards) use the right side up db's
......................????????
I was told that the hispanos suisa were making these variants until the mid-50s.
Splain the photos please (yeh.... i cant spell worth a crap on the internet....bfd)
Bmarsh
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Originally posted by Bill MarshTurtledeck vs. bubble
I was always under the impression that the tdeck was a better deal than the bubble deal..... any guess as to % of less drag or horse power or what ever ..... as for comparison sake
is there any yaw enhansement with the linear deck profile?
Splain please?
Bmash
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Turtledeck vs. bubble
I was always under the impression that the tdeck was a better deal than the bubble deal..... any guess as to % of less drag or horse power or what ever ..... as for comparison sake
is there any yaw enhansement with the linear deck profile?
Splain please?
Bmash
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Originally posted by pt17av8rDoes anyone have a good photo of one of my favorite turtledeck P-51's....."Beguine"?
Thanks
Dan
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Does anyone have a good photo of one of my favorite turtledeck P-51's....."Beguine"?
Thanks
Dan
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Originally posted by BuckyD
We'll launch here with a side-by-side photo roster of famous turtledeck P-51 racers, including custom (non-military stock) 'razorback' versions, that most air racing buffs are familiar with:DBD
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Re: TURTLEDECK'D P-51 AIR RACERS
Man, That is a sexy collection of pics. Beautiful Stangs!!!
P.s. Love the scoopless mustangs.
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