Tomorrow's Racers

[F-16 CREW CHIEF]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

I did mention that flying over the ocean might be a good idea to reduce the risk of encroachment.
Interference is a problem so you would have a backup AI which could take over and safely land the plane if this occurs. Modern radio control uses a pin code to only allow the correct signal through but the whole signal can be blocked if there is something like a lightning strike.
The aircraft would have rules where they can fly so they always keep away from the crowd even if control is lost.

What happens if a pilot has a heart attack or blacks out through G- forces nowadays ?

Ther ewould still be a pilot controlling the remote controlled aircraft but I except some of the glamour is lost to the blood thirsty crowd. Whether the aviation enthusiasts see it this way is another matter.
Every time I see an aircraft crash killing the pilot totally sickens me and leads to people calling for a ban.

I also follow motorcycle racing and visited the Isle of Man TT races last year. All the same issues come up. The purists claim adding safety barriers and padding changes the purity of the sport.
Each to their own I guess.

Racing over water has already happened. Watching gary levtiz,rick brickert,bill speer,ralph twombly,tommy rose,brad morehouse and gary hubler all die really saddened me but I will never say don't race you could die. It's dangerous, they risked it all to compete and payed a big price they knew it before they jumped in the seat and so does every pilot. I have no right to lecture a racer on the dangers of air racing. I accept every year that something very bad could happen when I purchase a ticket and live with it. Also google g-suits you will find some really cool information and the g-limits of a human body. If you didn't know these aircraft on occasion do get up to 10g's. I'm not blood thirsty i'm just a race fan.

[Dash]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

you can't fly supersonic over public land.

Well, that's not entirely true. When I lived in southern middle TN we had a supersonic corridor right over my house. News stated that the military had a route which had the F22's from Georgia prove sustained supersonic flights. Whether that was the plane or that was what they were doing I don't know for certain, but can't mistake a sonic boom. I also used to live in Florda, north of the Cape. If the shuttle made a southbound landing you'd get the unmistakable double sonic boom (one from a shockwave off the nose and one from the tail)

[Dash]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

If you didn't know these aircraft on occasion do get up to 10g's

Do racers get up to 10G's or are you just talking about in situations such as a trim tab departing and making the pilot black out while it went near vertical? I think that 3-5 G's max in the turns would be more normal. These guys aren't wearing G-pants and most people can't take more than 5 for very long without starting to loose consciousness. An old fighter pilot friend of mine (Top Gun IP) told me that I think it was 9 G's was the max that he'd pull in an F-4 or A-4 b/c it would require a tear down and inspection of the engine mounts. If you don't think that might be a problem, find the video of the F-4 that experienced PIO. The plane oscilates along and then the J-79's continue down range without the flaming aircraft! I would think that high G-loading would not be well suited for racing as you'd bleed a lot of speed off.

[F-16 CREW CHIEF]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

Well, that's not entirely true. When I lived in southern middle TN we had a supersonic corridor right over my house. News stated that the military had a route which had the F22's from Georgia prove sustained supersonic flights. Whether that was the plane or that was what they were doing I don't know for certain, but can't mistake a sonic boom. I also used to live in Florda, north of the Cape. If the shuttle made a southbound landing you'd get the unmistakable double sonic boom (one from a shockwave off the nose and one from the tail)

yeah I know. Having a supersonic air race with civilian aircraft over stead would be awesome but will only happen once. Over water isn't it required for aircraft to be three miles off shore. Having such a race over black rock or bonneville could be exciting.

[Red]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

They raced over water at the Hamilton races. I understand the pilots were not enthusiastic because it severely limited your choice of landing spots in a mayday.

[F-16 CREW CHIEF]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

Do racers get up to 10G's or are you just talking about in situations such as a trim tab departing and making the pilot black out while it went near vertical? I think that 3-5 G's max in the turns would be more normal. These guys aren't wearing G-pants and most people can't take more than 5 for very long without starting to loose consciousness. An old fighter pilot friend of mine (Top Gun IP) told me that I think it was 9 G's was the max that he'd pull in an F-4 or A-4 b/c it would require a tear down and inspection of the engine mounts. If you don't think that might be a problem, find the video of the F-4 that experienced PIO. The plane oscilates along and then the J-79's continue down range without the flaming aircraft! I would think that high G-loading would not be well suited for racing as you'd bleed a lot of speed off.

I was thinking of g-meters in unlimited aircraft Such as Dreadnaught. I am most likely wrong when listening to the 93 skyfire video when dennis sanders said something along the lines that the g-meter registered plus 10 minus 6 to sandy sanders. It's obviously just for 1 second when it pegged but still thats rather high. I know that the red bull air racers have gotten up to 9 plus g's but only for a split second, not the long continuous g's of combat aircraft. Greg poe does a 10 or 11 g vertical climb during his routine. Sorry for my poor explanation for my prior post I'm only enlisted

[Propellerhead]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

They raced over water at the Hamilton races. I understand the pilots were not enthusiastic because it severely limited your choice of landing spots in a mayday.

And the airborne, tethered pylons moved around a bit too...

[dvddude]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

I was thinking of g-meters in unlimited aircraft Such as Dreadnaught. I am most likely wrong when listening to the 93 skyfire video when dennis sanders said something along the lines that the g-meter registered plus 10 minus 6 to sandy sanders. It's obviously just for 1 second when it pegged but still thats rather high. I know that the red bull air racers have gotten up to 9 plus g's but only for a split second, not the long continuous g's of combat aircraft. Greg poe does a 10 or 11 g vertical climb during his routine. Sorry for my poor explanation for my prior post I'm only enlisted

I've talked to several Unlimited air race pilots and I've never heard of a 10G load being a normal occurrence. The normal G's in a turn is anywhere from 4 to 6 G's. I have no doubt that 10G's may have been recorded on occasion, but those are most likely due to either propwash or transitory loads from turbulence, thermals, etc. It's definitely not the norm. Think about it, they can't pull 10G's on a normal basis. Beside the fact that most pilots would G-LOC, (not good down low), the vast majority of airplanes would over-G and require substantial inspections prior to being flown again.

Perhaps an Unlimited pilot could give his perspective here in this thread?

[Mluvara]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

I've talked to several Unlimited air race pilots and I've never heard of a 10G load being a normal occurrence. The normal G's in a turn is anywhere from 4 to 6 G's. I have no doubt that 10G's may have been recorded on occasion, but those are most likely due to either propwash or transitory loads from turbulence, thermals, etc. It's definitely not the norm. Think about it, they can't pull 10G's on a normal basis. Beside the fact that most pilots would G-LOC, (not good down low), the vast majority of airplanes would over-G and require substantial inspections prior to being flown again.

Perhaps an Unlimited pilot could give his perspective here in this thread?

I'm not in the cockpit, but I do have quite a bit of data recorded from various classes.

On average, G forces are 3 g's for the unlimited course. Depending on the pull, 4 g's, or occasionally, you might see 5 g's. Anything more than that would be a spike from turbulence, another aircraft's wake,etc. A g meter will register the instantaneous readings like this.

For example, attached is an unlimited's G loading on the course, above 460mph. Pink line is G's, with scale on the left.

Michael

[Bob]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

does the yellow trace record the pilots pucker force as measured at the ummmm pucker probe? (sorry I just couldnt resist)

[Leo]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

Wow, a lot of directions to this.
Only pilots I've ever heard having heart attacks racing were ED Weiner and Bob Downey. ED landed safely, Bob did not. Two out of all these years is a looooow percentage to me. I've never heard of a pilot going in during a race due to g induced blackout.
Supersonic at Stead? I'd agree it might happen once! Jeez they complain about the noise now! Imagine the broken windows in Silver Springs and Red Rock. A lot of the locals HATE the jet teams for that one reason, noise. I say don't live next to an airport then but thats a different subject.
I think that any motorsport's major component is the skill of the human and the danger. I watch knowing these guy's are doing something I will NEVER have the skill set (and other set) to do myself. Take that out and you lose most of the crowd appeal. just human nature and the way it is.

[Reno_Steve]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

The current unlimmited course at Reno has been tamed down so that G-loads are not as high.
I think if the aircraft were unmanned we could have much sharper turns.

The danger of flying over water is also removed when unmanned aircraft are used, although the loss of the aircraft is a concern.

I live in Australia and I think we should be able to find a space for supersonic closed course flight where not too many people would complain. I know that people will move to an interesting site and then complain of the noise, so you need to get a government ruling allowing supersonic flight for a closed area for say 100 years. I am sure the USA is big enough to allow this somewhere.

If the aircraft are unmanned but remote controlled, it is still a pilot flying the aircraft. Is this any different to the crowd than the pilot being in the aircraft ?

I am not suggesting that we stop pilotted air racing, but just that as an alternative opening up the sport for more imaginative designs , possibly cheaper and faster.

[Red]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

Sharper corners would reduce speed. Lowering the G load makes the course faster. I would love to see a say 10-15 mile course with longer straights to let them really wind up!

[Whiteside]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

I see that Redly. 400+
Thought you were clever........................
More aero clean up mods today. coming out?

WW

[Leo]

Re: Tomorrow's Racers

Supersonic races?
What kind of turbulence will all the shock wave interacting cause?

Will, when you mounting a 4360 on that thing?