RACE 15 "Furias"

[GeeBeeZ1931]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

Fatal non one off crashes.... I hope for the sake of high numbers you are asking about JUST unlimiteds... Because the list would be huge if we included all classes I am sure.


Lets face it. One off designs have been the fatal vehicles in many many venue's. Race boats, Race cars, and planes. I feel sometimes we are too hard on one off race planes. I think relatively speaking the deaths related to one off prototype race planes is low when you look at cars/boats/trains whatever etc etc. Do I think building an unlimited race plane out of a factory warbird is safer?? Yes I do. But I love seeing one off designs I think it promotes the future of unlimited racing. If it can be found to go faster for cheaper using new technology I think we should be embracing it not criticizing.

Amen!

[Mluvara]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

My point is...designing and building a race plane is a HUGE and daunting task...my hat is off to anyone who attempts it. I will always root for those type of people. MB for instance...nobody thought a small block Sea Fury could go that fast. He went against the grain and surprised alot of people. The same spirit is in the guys who do the one-off's. The fact remains that the large pools of engineers at NA, Grumman etc. had vastly more resources than are avaialble to anyone who has attempted this. I'm not belittling anybody's effort here, I wanted Tsunami and MAII to succeed possibly as much as the guys involved. I still think the heavy iron is better suited to this type of thing. I'm being hypocritical a bit here because I love seeing more scratchbuilt stuff race...as long as it is safe.

This all brings up a basic point... In the history of Reno, the Unlimiteds (with the exception of the few homebuilts) basically are ex-military machines. These aircraft benefited from huge test programs/development, test pilots who risked their lives (some gave them up), and a lot of resources behind them. Because of this, the aircrafts' respective VNE limits, structure,etc are tested and known. This is certainly to the racer's benefit. All of the homebuilts were one off's with their own respective items that led to their accidents. Not that they cannot happen with a modified racer, but my point is that the airframes are well tested and pilots get the benefit of that. I know this is a major concern in the sport class and others where the aircraft are going well beyond their design limits and a lot of testing is being done to validate the aircraft. There is a lot more being pressed on the aircraft builders/owners to flight test any modifications/changes to the airframe, which certainly is the right thing to do.

Michael

[Red]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

Red,
That's a great post, but I have a quick answer to your question above. I was standing in the pits when Bill Speer in his "other" P-51 (Deja Vu, race #56?) crashed short of runway 8 at Stead in 1994. I, and many others, were witness to that tragic loss.
Chris

Thanks for that. Thankfully that was one of the few years I have missed.
Was it a structural failure or did he lose power?

[Red]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

Fatal non one off crashes.... I hope for the sake of high numbers you are asking about JUST unlimiteds... Because the list would be huge if we included all classes I am sure.


Lets face it. One off designs have been the fatal vehicles in many many venue's. Race boats, Race cars, and planes. I feel sometimes we are too hard on one off race planes. I think relatively speaking the deaths related to one off prototype race planes is low when you look at cars/boats/trains whatever etc etc. Do I think building an unlimited race plane out of a factory warbird is safer?? Yes I do. But I love seeing one off designs I think it promotes the future of unlimited racing. If it can be found to go faster for cheaper using new technology I think we should be embracing it not criticizing.

Yeah my post specifically stated UL's. I love the one off's too, and would love to see more of them race. Maybe that is why I like IF1 so much as well.

[Red]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

This all brings up a basic point... In the history of Reno, the Unlimiteds (with the exception of the few homebuilts) basically are ex-military machines. These aircraft benefited from huge test programs/development, test pilots who risked their lives (some gave them up), and a lot of resources behind them. Because of this, the aircrafts' respective VNE limits, structure,etc are tested and known. This is certainly to the racer's benefit. All of the homebuilts were one off's with their own respective items that led to their accidents. Not that they cannot happen with a modified racer, but my point is that the airframes are well tested and pilots get the benefit of that. I know this is a major concern in the sport class and others where the aircraft are going well beyond their design limits and a lot of testing is being done to validate the aircraft. There is a lot more being pressed on the aircraft builders/owners to flight test any modifications/changes to the airframe, which certainly is the right thing to do.


Michael

Michael

You hit the nail on the head. I also think the one off's were exceptionally well engineered, and suffered mostly from bad luck, not poor design. They achieved a remarkable amount and my hat is off to them.

I do know however that there are teams out there attempting this, some of whom have an unlimited budget and will expend the resources necessary to go fast safely

[Mluvara]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

Thanks for that. Thankfully that was one of the few years I have missed.
Was it a structural failure or did he lose power?

"Other"

[Mluvara]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

Michael

You hit the nail on the head. I also think the one off's were exceptionally well engineered, and suffered mostly from bad luck, not poor design. They achieved a remarkable amount and my hat is off to them.

Yep! Just fielding a racer and showing up at Reno is a huge task. Building one is another story!

[Red]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

"Other"

Does that read pilot error?

[FlyKidChris]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

Red,
Here's a link to the NTSB accident report for that crash:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001206X02287&key=1

Chris

[sugarkane]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

The only rule I'm aware of is the 4500 lb. min weight. What others are there that have forcefully eliminated them?

thats the one that has made it quite pointless for any one to build something new...

with composites and a 2000lb plane that was very sleek you could really take a stick to the old warbirds and rear bears land speed records

sk

[Red]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

Red,
Here's a link to the NTSB accident report for that crash:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001206X02287&key=1

Chris

Bummer....yes I remember that one now.

[Red]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

thats the one that has made it quite pointless for any one to build something new...

with composites and a 2000lb plane that was very sleek you could really take a stick to the old warbirds and rear bears land speed records

sk

Some call that the Parker rule. It was based on the effects of wake turbulence on smaller lighter aircraft behind the biggies like the Buick.

While I agree that composites can build some wonderful things (ask me how I know ) , Tsunami, MAII and the Pond (all composite!) were all over the 4500 lb weight minimum.

[Red]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

Wayne,

It seems I have drug this thread very far off topic. Please feel free to make a new thread or merge this one with my "new racers?) thread?

Thanks

[Big_Jim]

Re: RACE 15 \"Furias\"

Red,
That\'s a great post, but I have a quick answer to your question above. I was standing in the pits when Bill Speer in his \"other\" P-51 (Deja Vu, race #56?) crashed short of runway 8 at Stead in 1994. I, and many others, were witness to that tragic loss.
Chris

Correct me if I\'m wrong, FlyKid, but wasn\'t that accident attributed to a physiological issue with the pilot and not a failure of the aircraft?

[Whiteside]

Re: RACE 15 "Furias"

I cant help but chime in here. However the 4500 Lb rule was enacted it makes a huge amount of sense to me EVERY time I am flying the Yak behind "ANY" other Unlimited. SteadFast is just over that weight and considering flying a Legacy, GAIII, NXT etc. in the same scenario is just unacceptable. To think you can avoid wake on the racecourse completely is also very naive. It is out there and you will find it eventually no matter what the line your flying is. It would take just one unfortunate event to deem flying lighter aircraft with Unlimited a very bad idea. We have not yet touched on the visibility aspect of a small, lightweight design. I occasionally flew a high line this year in the midst of other traffic for a reason. One: flying in wake is slower. 2:Flying in wake is not a huge amount of fun. 3:Anything that does not comply with reason 1 or 2 should not be considered on the racecourse.

Now back to why I started to read this thread: FURIAS is coming back!
The pilot is extremely capable of putting together a program to see that airplane run WAY up front. Hopefully just behind Voodoo!
Good News!
WW