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**Hawkeye** · 10-30-2008, 09:11 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

Everything I have ever read indicated that installing Merlins in a P-38 was just a idea that was never tried.

**Inverted** · 10-30-2008, 09:24 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

what would be the point?

**Lockheed Bob** · 10-30-2008, 09:27 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

After reading all I can find on the P38 they went up to a P38L but skipped the K model. All of them had various Allisons but no mention of Merlins. All this is found in at least 4 books on the P38.

**steve D** · 10-30-2008, 10:24 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

From the book "Allied Aircraft Piston Engines" by Graham White. "In 1944 an eighth air force P-38 was flown from Bovington to Hucknall for a trial installation of single stage , two-speed Merlin XXs. Rolls Royce test flew the aircraft a number of times, unmodified until word came down to return the aircraft immediately! It seems that the decision was political in nature due to the fact the orders to stop work came from Washington. Considering the problematic service record of the P-38 in the eighth air force, it seems almost criminal that politics should be allowed to interfere with the development of a potentially useful aircraft. Lockheed did extensive engineering evaluation of the P-38 powered by two-stage merlins; the resulting aircraft would have been dramatically transformed in a manner similar to the P-51 Mustang"
Two refs were given, one "Aircraft engines of the world" by Paul Wilkerson 1946, the other "P-38 performance comparison Allison and Rolls Royce engines" Lockheed Aircraft Corp Feb 1944
If you could get yer hands on those two refs than you would have your proof!

It all came down to politics, the Merlin was needed elsewhere!

**W J Pearce** · 10-30-2008, 10:50 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

To the best of my knowledge and reference material, no P-38 was ever fitted with Merlins. Studies were made, design work done, but it never happened.

The P-38K was Allison powered but the Allisons were uprated and had a different gear ratio to accommodate the larger (paddle) blade prop.

Read this about the K:

http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/P-38K.html

**Leo** · 10-31-2008, 04:00 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

What I've read is in line with WJ Pierce's comments. The difference in projected performance wasn't worth the production hassles and the Merlin wasn't as readily available yet as later. I have read versions where it was just a paper airplane with many new ideas (some later adopted) and other versions where it was a test unit that flew.
Once the intercooler problems were solved (a backfire in early models would warp the wing leading edges), the superchargers made more reliable and other improvements were made the J and L models weren't too bad in the ETO but by then it had lost it's reputation. The decision was made to use them primarily in the pacific where their twin engines and firepower were extremely helpful and the problems with high altitude and cold were not an issue.
A similiar decision was made with the B-17 and B-24, with the greater numbers of B-17 going to the ETO.

**JET1** · 10-31-2008, 04:34 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

the brits did it early on get copies of the Roll Royce Heritage merlin books. there is a picture of the brit modified one in that series + a good write-up of the problems encountered.

Just a moment...

http://www.alibris.com/search/books/author/Rolls-Royce%20Heritage%20Trust

**MikeS** · 10-31-2008, 05:17 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

Wow! Fantastic feedback everyone. I really appreciate those who took the time to research this further and reply. Many thanks!

**B52Hfan** · 10-31-2008, 10:00 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

Originally posted by Leo

What I've read is in line with WJ Pierce's comments. The difference in projected performance wasn't worth the production hassles and the Merlin wasn't as readily available yet as later. I have read versions where it was just a paper airplane with many new ideas (some later adopted) and other versions where it was a test unit that flew.
Once the intercooler problems were solved (a backfire in early models would warp the wing leading edges), the superchargers made more reliable and other improvements were made the J and L models weren't too bad in the ETO but by then it had lost it's reputation. The decision was made to use them primarily in the pacific where their twin engines and firepower were extremely helpful and the problems with high altitude and cold were not an issue.
A similiar decision was made with the B-17 and B-24, with the greater numbers of B-17 going to the ETO.

Just to take exception, I saw a friends photo of his Grandfather painting a 'Bomb' symbol on a -38 in Foggia, Italy! I don't remember the particular numbered Air Force, but, they had at least TWO squadron strength units
that, not only participated in Ploesti bombings, were 'Ace' producers as well! ! I understand it was fairly late in the war, as, my friends grandfather went with the unit from North Africa to Sicily and up the 'Boot' from there! By the time they made it to Foggia, V-E Day was around the corner!

**Leo** · 11-03-2008, 08:48 AM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

Sorry, did'nt mean it sound as if they were all removed. They served well in Italy (which is actually where the incident I mentioned with the YB-40supposedly took place) and in Europe, just in reduced numbers when compared to other fighters. Emphasis on P-38 production quotas went to the pacific, with more emphasis in the ETO on the P-47 and P-51. The P-38 just had too many problems with altitude and cold when operating out of England. By the time they had it ironed out it was too late for it in that theatre, the others had taken the spotlight. It did'nt help that the first models going to the Brits had no turbo's and non-counter rotating props. The Brits hated them.

**Skyracer** · 11-04-2008, 08:16 AM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

A past acquaintance of mine flew P-38's out of England against the Luftwaffe and "targets of opportunity" in occupied France. He was shot down (or took shrapnel from ground target secondary explosions) and made a successful crash landing. He was taken in by the French underground and eventually picked up by submarine and returned to England. From there he was sent to Wright-Patterson for debriefing, then assigned to evaluate captured enemy planes and develop tactics against them.

RIP my friend.

**hm66sk** · 11-05-2008, 10:20 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts

Originally posted by JET1

the brits did it early on get copies of the Roll Royce Heritage merlin books. there is a picture of the brit modified one in that series + a good write-up of the problems encountered.

http://www.alibris.com/search/books/...ritage%20Trust

Would that be "The Merlin in Perspective"?

**JET1** · 11-06-2008, 05:58 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts ill get back to you

Originally posted by hm66sk

Would that be "The Merlin in Perspective"?

ill dig my copies out and scan a couple of pages fo you but I'm remodeling a bath right now and my house is in destruct mode. drop me an e-mail to remind me!

**hm66sk** · 11-06-2008, 10:55 PM

Re: XP-38K - asking the experts ill get back to you

Originally posted by JET1

ill dig my copies out and scan a couple of pages fo you but I'm remodeling a bath right now and my house is in destruct mode. drop me an e-mail to remind me!

Thanks Jet. I have the above mentioned book somewhere. Is that the one?

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