dogfight tactics

[RB77fan]

anyone know a good site for dogfighting tactics...i am playing a sim called aces high 2...need new moves.

[First time Juke]

Re: dogfight tactics

I dunno a good site for them, but I listen carefully when people who have seen or experienced air combat talk.

See the History channel for several air combat sorties videos.

I once flew a 15 min session with IL-2 simulator and downed 4 bombers in very short pace using tactics I heard from a 75 years old man ( infantry veteran ) in hospital who had seen ( witnessed ) from a good position ( from a hill ) a finnish fighter shooting down 6 enemy ground attack AC:s. This has never been recorded in the annals of that war ( possibly because this fighter jockey acted alone at very low altitude ) and no one was there to verify it ( the kills ) he figured. Could be hoax too but the tactics bit in the simulator.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: dogfight tactics

Try some of these:

Combat Maneuvers

http://library.thinkquest.org/3142/manuv.htm

[Low-n-Slow]

Re: dogfight tactics

An online search for ACM (Air Combat Maneuvers) will bring up enough material to keep you reading for days - best restrict it to WW-II aircraft as you likely won't be using guided ordinance or afterburnered jets.

If you can get a copy, the bible of ACM is Robert Shaw's Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering.

But remember reading about it ain't the same as being able to do it. Think about steppin' into the cage against an experinced MMA fighter just after you've read a do-it-yerself book on self defence - same difference but this will hurt less (altho' your ego will ge bruised on a pretty regular basis). Spend as many hours practicing as you can. You will die a lot. Learn something from each time you die.

Probably the most important skill to work on is view management - be able to maneuver the aircraft while keeping the enemy in sight, wherever he/she is. Practice until you can fly as well looking over your shoulder as you can looking straight ahead. Lose sight of you enemy and you will die. Quickly.

Each aircraft is different, what works in one will not necessarily work in another, learn each plane's stengths and weaknesses. Also, remember Aces High is a relatively low fidelity flight model, so its models will not necessarily react in the same way as the real aircraft.

Take advantage of the training offered:http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/. This will speed up your learning curve exponentially.

have fun
Low

[First time Juke]

Re: dogfight tactics

here is a simulated fight between 109 K and a Tempest. What do they do wrong...looks pretty long fight to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVsk4fZUiTI

[Low-n-Slow]

Re: dogfight tactics

...What do they do wrong...

They lost!

The two Tempests stay in close formation, negating their numerical advantage. They get into a turn fight against a better turning foe, giving up their speed advantage. Near the end, the remaining Tempest actually gets the 109 to overshoot but instead of droping onto the 109s 6 for a shot he rolls and breaks, indicating he either had lost sight of his enemy or had already given up any hope of winning (in which case he should have used the Tempest's superior speed earlier when he had a chance to escape).
Better tactic on the Tempests part would have been a split merge rather than staying together, this would force the 109 to make a choice and turn after one, the other would then be free to go for a guns solution, either getting a shot or forcing the 109 to break and lose enegy. As soon as the 109 breaks, the attacked Tempest goes offensive, the attacking Tempest extends to retain energy, rather than turning with the break. Rinse and repeat, bleeding the 109's energy until he is low, slow and out of options.

cheers
Low

[Race 29]

Re: dogfight tactics

There's also the series called "Dogfights". You can find them at your local video store. I have season 1!!

Race 29

[Randy Haskin]

Re: dogfight tactics

"ACM" is a US Navy term. In the USAF, there are specific terms to describe different types of dogfighting:

Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) = 1 v 1 maneuvering
Air Combat Maneuvering (ACM) = 2 v 1 maneuvering
Air Combat Tactics (ACT) = 2 (or more) v 2 (or more)

The basic axioms of BFM are:

1. Lose sight, lose the fight. If you can't see your bandit, you can't kill him. Also, if you don't see him attacking you, you can't defend against it.
2. Maneuver in relation to the bandit. It doesn't matter where the horizon is, you always determine what maneuvers are performed and the direction in which you perform them based on the location of who you are fighting.
3. Nose position vs energy. Dogfighting is all about energy management -- knowing when to "hold 'em" and when to "cash in your chips". This axiom reminds you that energy management in a BFM fight is binary -- either you are in a "nose position" fight and cashing in all your energy to point your nose at the bad guy and employ weapons at him, or you are in an "energy" fight and performing your aircraft to maintain or gain energy.

[64chrysler300]

Re: dogfight tactics

Hehe....40 second Boyd. The God Father of energy managment.

[First time Juke]

Re: dogfight tactics

The case I told you about in the first comment about guy shooting 6 planes in rapid succession !?

We found out now who the pilot was. It was reservist officer Kyösti Karhila. He engaged 6 Il-2:s and shot 5 of the until run out of ammo.
It was never confirmed, but seems obvious. Way to go infantry man.

[wyhdah]

Re: dogfight tactics

Hey Hacker, how does the ability to turn, like the TV planes, change the equation?

[Airpirate]

Re: dogfight tactics

Tactics will depend entirley on the aircraft you are flying. The idea is to draw your opponent into a fight that will capitalize the strengths of your aircraft and expose his weakness.

For example, an F-4 Phantom and a Mig 17. The 17 can turn circles inside the Phantom. You don't want to get into a low level fight that will give him the advantage of turning inside you to make a shot. You use your power advantage to pull the fight into the vertical, The Phantom will climb much faster and the Mig will bleed energy way before the Phantom. Go up over the top and wax him on the way down. The f-4 can also outrun a Mig if things get bad.

Similar with the Zeros and the P-38's, don't turn with them, get above zoom down take your shot and zoom away. Contuinue your attacks.

By the way, I'm no expert, I read alot about tactics, spent some time with some old Aces. The only "dogfighting" I ever did was sparing with another T-6 over Lake Michigan early one morning. Oh yeah, I got my ass chewed everytime, the other pilot was a P-51 Ace. Learned a lot through.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: dogfight tactics

Hey Hacker, how does the ability to turn, like the TV planes, change the equation?

Turn performance is EVERYTHING...and nothing.

Unlike what you see in the movies or in WWII camera footage, dogfights are all tightly-wrapped circles. In fact, all you really care about is the best turn radius you can achieve or the best turn rate you can achieve...depending on what type of fight it is.

Of course, the Boyd part of the equasion is figuring out at what airspeeds and G-loadings the aircraft will perform the best rate and best radius.